Brainy Moms
Brainy Moms is a parenting podcast with smart ideas to help moms and kids thrive! Hosted by cognitive psychologist Dr. Amy Moore along with rotating co-hosts Sandy Zamalis, Teri Miller, and Dr. Jody Jedlicka, this weekly show features conversations and guest experts in parenting, psychology, child development, education, and medicine with practical tips to help moms navigate the ups and downs of parenthood. We're smart moms helping make moms smarter...one episode at a time!
Brainy Moms
Managing school anxiety: Tips for parents of kids and teens with Dr. Amy Moore and Sandy Zamalis
On this episode of the Brainy Moms podcast, Dr. Amy and Sandy talk about back-to-school anxiety at different ages and stages. You’ll learn how some of the most common fears typically manifest in elementary, middle, and high school and how you can help support your child or teen. You’ll also hear tips on framing discussions about school and which behaviors may indicate more than “typical” anxiety, perhaps requiring an intervention such as therapy, medication, or an intervention for learning struggles. This is a jam-packed episode with useful tips from host and parents who are also professionals in their fields so you don’t want to miss out!
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DR. AMY: Hi, smart moms and dads. Welcome to another episode of the Brainy Moms podcast brought to you today by LearningRx Brain Training Centers. I'm Dr. Amy Moore and I am here with Sandy Zamalis, and we're going to have a conversation today about school anxiety as we are headed into the new year. Good morning, Sandy.
SANDY: Good morning. So, we thought we would frame this conversation around kind of the different ages and stages for our kids. So, let's kick off with the elementary school years and talk about what school anxiety might look like for young children. Are there specific triggers that parents should be aware of at the elementary-school age?
DR. AMY: Yeah, well, let me just start with some basics first and share what actually is school anxiety, right? Because school anxiety is not a diagnosis. It's not the same as generalized anxiety disorder or OCD, although we can see school anxiety with a diagnosis like that, and we frequently do. But school anxiety by itself is simply excessive worry or fear about school, about going to school, about school-related activities, and even relationships at school. So I just wanted to make that clear, right, that it wasn't a mental health diagnosis, it's more of a phenomenon. And not to downplay it, because these are real emotions associated with this phenomenon called school anxiety, and, you know, it's pretty widespread, so it was an important topic, I think, for us to discuss. So, causes for school anxiety, and, in the elementary years, can look a little different than the causes in the older kids. And so really, one of the main reasons that we might see school anxiety in a young child is fear of separating from parents, having a history of being bullied, or having a learning struggle. And so that fear of failure or not being able to keep up with classmates, or being embarrassed because they get called on and they can't answer accurately. So those are the primary reasons why we might see school anxiety in elementary age kids.
SANDY: What kinds of things would help parents and if they have a child who, in those elementary years, is having some anxiety around school, do things like routines help?
DR. AMY: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, starting that school routine a couple of weeks before school starts is a great way to kind of lower the temperature on potential school anxiety as we approach the school year. You know, obviously if school's already started, then, you know, it's too late to do that. But kids, especially young children need consistency. And so if we have consistent routines, right, if our wake up time is consistent, if, you know, getting dressed and having breakfast and whatever conversations are going to happen in the mornings, if those routines can be consistent, then that's one less thing that can create stress for our kids in the mornings as they're getting ready for school. And part of that routine is managing our own stress in the mornings. So we've talked over and over again about how emotions are contagious and how we set the stage as parents. And so, especially for working parents, if we're running late in the morning and we're screaming, “Let's go, let's go, let's go!”, then that is going to throw our kids into a fight-or-flight state. Right? That's going to create an enormous amount of stress, and that's a really difficult way to start your day. And so try to keep our temperature low, even if we are running late, right? We can learn some coping skills ourselves to manage the stress that comes along with that. And we can also do a better job about running late, right? If we need to set our alarms 15 minutes earlier to create a cushion, let's do it. If we need to set double alarms, let's do it. Because we don't want to add to our children's stress in the morning by not being able to manage our own stress in the mornings.
SANDY: And what kind of conversations can parents have with their kids at this age to get to the root of the issue? Because we may not know that, right? We may not know if there's a bully or stress with a classmate or a teacher or just something happening in the day to day of going to school that's causing it. So what kinds of things can a parent do to help guide that conversation and get to that root?
DR. AMY: Yeah, that's a great question. So, you know, ideally we would want to start before there's a problem. And so we want to connect, connect, connect. Right? Connection is the number one buffer against mental health crisis for kids. And so we want to stay connected to them before there's a crisis. And kids are more likely to communicate with us when they do feel connected. When we have created this safe space for them to share their feelings, then they're more apt to share their feelings with us. And so when we can create space and time for connecting, then that keeps that door open. When we respond to our kids concerns in a way that validates those concerns, then that creates space for connecting, right? That keeps that door of communication open, right? Our kid is feeling a little bit of discomfort or unrest about what's happening at school or about going to school, and they feel safe coming to us because they know that we're going to validate their feelings. And so what does that sound like? What it doesn't sound like is this: “Oh, don't worry about it. You'll be fine.” That is not what it sounds like. What it sounds like is, “Wow, that sounds like you're really worried about it. Let's talk about that. What are you most afraid of? What do you think might happen?” Right? And so really listening to your child's fears, and then creating a game plan. “Okay, suppose that does happen. How could you handle it?” Right? “Let's come up with some strategies together, right, on how you can respond, what you can say, what you can do if that really does happen” to kind of lower the temperature on the what-ifs. Because a lot of times just the anticipation that something might go wrong is worse than actually what might go wrong, right? And so if we can give them some strategies and a game plan to enact, if something does go wrong, if something that they are fearful about does come true, and then they're ready to implement that strategy or to say that particular statement, then they can experience some success in that situation. “Oh, that did happen. I did have a plan and I was able to put that plan into action. And so now I know if that ever happens again, it’ll be ok.”
SANDY: We've talked about this a bajillion times, but I'm assuming sleep is going to play a big factor in this for our young kids, all kids, especially, but definitely for our young ones, making sure they get good sleep at night so that they're feeling well rested and ready to take on their day. That's going to be a priority.
DR. AMY: Yeah, absolutely. Because we know that sleep deprivation can lead to emotion dysregulation. And so kids— and adults, actually—but kids can't manage those big emotions very well if they're sleep deprived. And so if they've gotten a good night's sleep, then they're able to look at those game plans, right, that we've put into place ahead of time. They're able to access those, right? Because they have access to their prefrontal cortex. They're not hijacked by their DR. AMYgdala because they're able to manage those big emotions better when they have gotten a good night's sleep.
SANDY: So at the elementary age, oftentimes there might be a little bit of misunderstanding between school anxiety and school refusal. Let's talk about the differences between those two things.
DR. AMY: Yeah. So school anxiety is that general fear or feeling of unrest or discomfort about what might happen at school, right? About going to school, about being separated from Mom and Dad, you know, about being bullied, about what happens if I'm called on, what happens if I have to get up and speak in front of the class, right? What if no one likes me? What if no one sits next to me at lunch? Or what if no one plays with me on the playground? It's that general discomfort and fear of the what ifs that kind of create, you know, physical symptoms, emotional symptoms, behavioral symptoms, which we can talk about, you know, as well. But it's feelings. School refusal is when a child actually refuses to go, says, “I'm not going.” One of my kids actually went through some severe school anxiety, which led to school refusal. He would hold on to the kitchen counter as tight as he could, screaming, “I am not going.” That is school refusal versus being a little bit teary eyed or pensive or quiet, you know, having a little bit of a stomachache because you're worried about school versus “I'm not going.”
SANDY: So at that point, do we need to maybe think about getting some professional intervention if we're in that school refusal zone?
DR. AMY: Yeah. So initially, here's how we should not handle school refusal: by keeping them home. That actually feeds the anxiety that creates that refusal to go. And so the only way to beat anxiety is to go through it. And so it's tempting as parents to be so sad for our child that we say, “Okay, it's fine. You can stay home.” And the longer our child stays home, the bigger the anxiety gets and the greater the refusal becomes. And so we have to recognize that we are not doing our child any favors by keeping them home. Now, if there is a dangerous situation at school, if there is a real threat, or a history of bullying behavior that has not been resolved yet, that is different, right? That's a safety concern. That's different. But school refusal because of anxiety that has, the temperature has gotten so high on that anxiety, if that is something that we aren't able as parents to help our child work through, then absolutely that is the time that we would get want to get a mental health counselor or a psychologist involved. Because there are very effective therapies for school anxiety and school refusal. So cognitive behavioral therapy, EMDR, very effective ways that act pretty quickly to get our child back to school.
SANDY: Okay. Let's kind of switch gears a little bit and let's talk about the middle school ages. How does this transition from elementary to middle school contribute to increased anxiety in preteens?
DR. AMY: Yeah. So that is a huge transition in a child's life. And I will say that I think it's terrible that we choose to create that middle school change at adolescence. The way that all of a sudden we have to start having six different teachers and six different classrooms with a locker. We have to change classes in a limited amount of time at the exact same time that our bodies are changing, that our hormones are changing, that we're going through puberty, that we're entering adolescence. We're double-whammying our kids at that middle school transition stage. And so they're already experiencing all of these changes in their bodies and then to give them this environmental social change all at the same time? Oh man. It just breaks my heart. I really love the K through eight schools, right? So that we don't have that drastic transition. And then they go on to high school and it's so it's things like, you know, you're still in the same facility in the same environment. You still recognize the leadership and the teachers in the halls and you gradually learn how to start changing classes, right? And how you gradually start adding additional teachers to your day. That this, you know, “let's graduate from sixth grade and move on to middle school” or “graduate from fifth grade and move on to middle school”, right in the middle of puberty and adolescence is rough.
SANDY: I remember I used to hate changing for gym. Like that was like the worst part of transitioning from that middle school age and having to like navigate that, being in front of others. And like you said, body's changing, everything. And then the other thing was the locker. Like I would have nightmares over like breaks that I would forget my locker combination and panic that I wouldn't be able to get in or out. But I know when my kids were in school, like they just bypassed the lockers altogether. The lockers were there, but they wouldn't use them because they just took that stressor right out of the equation and would just lug all their heavy books around from class to class.
DR. AMY: In fact, there's a high school in our region that doesn't even have lockers and they do that for security reasons. But the back problems that they're creating for these kids, right., that they have to carry everything for the whole day in their backpack! I'm not sure I liked that solution at all. My kids didn't go to that school.
SANDY: So what would be your advice for parents during that middle school time? How do we continue, you know, the conversation with them? How do we continue practicing some of those proactive efforts to plan and help them navigate these changing dynamics of a middle school?
DR. AMY: So I think, again, continuing to create those invitations for connection is as important, if not more important, you know, as we enter those middle school years. Really staying on top of, you know, who our children are friends with and what those conversations are looking like so that if our kids have questions, we're there, right? “Hey, my friend and I were talking about this and I'm just wondering, is there any truth to this, Mom?” Right? Being willing to have these honest conversations with them, right? That's one way to stay connected. Here's one thing that I would suggest: because you're changing classes and those are different people in some of those classes. It's a different teacher in many of those classes. We want to try to find ways to have some consistency for our kids that are in middle school, starting middle school. And so by giving them opportunities to have time with one or two particular friends outside of school is great. So encouraging, you know, weekend activities, you know, with one or two of the kids who they've really found a good connection with, maybe even someone who they've continued to be friends with, you know, from elementary school that now go to that same school. And I would say that is important for elementary-age kids as well. But for middle school, especially, right, enabling them to have one or two friends who create that safe place for them during the school day, as well as then after school and on weekends. And so, you know, if your child has a cell phone in middle school, not using the cell phone for reward or punishment because that is one way that they get to stay connected to that one or two friends who they've made that connection with. So I would think of other ways to implement consequences than removing connection.
SANDY: What ways can parents help their child balance the increased academic expectations of middle school without adding to their stress? Because grades become slightly more important the older we get. What would you say to help navigate that?
DR. AMY: Yeah, so I think that it's important to talk about the reality, right? So validate, “Yeah, that's hard work.” Validate, “Yeah, that can be stressful to have to have three classes that you have to turn in an assignment for tomorrow. Man, how can I help?” So really don't downplay the stress that our middle-school child is feeling about that increased workload. And then really work hard to balance their schedule. You know, David Elkind wrote in this amazing book in the 1980s called, “The Hurried Child,” and it was all about the stress that is created when our kids are booked hour to hour to hour. And so really sitting down with our kid as they enter middle school and saying, “Hey, realistically, you've got a lot more work now than you've ever had, so what extracurricular activity are you super passionate about doing that you really want to focus on and which of these academic, I'm sorry, which of these extracurricular activities might we not try this semester?” Right? So really help them prioritize, you know, those extra things that they want to work on so that they're not overscheduled, especially that first semester. And maybe that's what the conversation sounds like. “Hey, let's give you this successful transition to middle school, right, by not overscheduling you. Let's see how it goes this first semester, right, and then if you've got some space in your calendar, then we can add something in the spring. But let's, you know, really be intentional about what we pick.”
SANDY: Are there specific mindfulness or relaxation techniques that are particularly effective for this age group that might be helpful?
DR. AMY: Yeah. So, I think that it's important, you know, to teach kids mindfulness at every age, right? That ability to say, “Hey, you need to focus on right here and right now when you're feeling stressed.” And so, if you want to listen to a song, focus on one instrument for the next three minutes, right? Just sort of to bring yourself into a sensory experience that shuts out the chaos of the rest of the world. But I also like grounding exercises. And one of my favorites, is called “Focus on Four.” So when you see your child becoming a little bit dysregulated, having trouble with the stress that they're feeling in the moment, say, “Hey, let's focus on four. I want you to name four things that you can see right now. And then I want you to name four things that you can touch and actually touch them. And then move four body parts.” And so watch the calming effect of a grounding exercise like that. There's a shorter one, called “The Rule of Three”, where you can just name three things you can see, name three things you can hear, and move three body parts. But I've created Focus on Four because I think it takes a little extra time to get grounded.
SANDY: Those are, that's a great tip. I love that. What should parents do if they are noticing that their child is withdrawing or exhibiting signs of anxiety about school that they're reluctant to talk about?
DR. AMY: Yeah. So something beautiful happens when we are in the physical presence of someone who loves us. And, you know, when I do workshops on the importance of co-regulation, how parents have to help their child learn self-regulation of emotion skills, I always say that we cannot co-regulate if our child is in a different room. And so the mere presence can help lower the temperature on that emotion dysregulation. And so we can notice that our child is feeling stressed. They aren't necessarily ready to talk about it, but we can say to them, “Hey, I'm over here if you change your mind and want to talk about your day. So I'm going to be here reading a book or I'm going to work on some other work, but I'm here for you if you change your mind.” So again, we keep that door open. We create that invitation for connection, but we don't force it. Trying to force our kid to talk about something is an exercise in futility, right?
SANDY: Exactly. Well, and you, as you've been kind of highlighting, you want to create that connection and that open-door policy so that they're always able to come. And it may be that they don't want to talk right now, but, you know, later on in the evening, they'll seek you out and are ready to unpack it.
DR. AMY: And I think you hit on something really important. You know, our circadian rhythms change as we enter teenage years and so kids become alive later in the evenings. And so Jeff and I made the decision to sleep with our bedroom door open. And so, yes, firemen are freaking out at that comment right now because they say for safety, you should always sleep with your door closed. We made that decision because we wanted our kids to feel free to come in and talk to us whenever they wanted. And so our kids, even as teenagers, would come in after date night, sit down on the edge of the bed and tell us about their date, right? They would come in after an evening, you know, gaming with friends and come in and just tell us about their evening. And I can remember many conversations where I had one eye open. Like it was a struggle just to keep one eye open because it's midnight. I'm half asleep, but I was going to listen to my child because they were ready to connect.
SANDY: I still do that to this day. My favorite conversations are the, you know, midnight conversations I get to have with my kids. I'll stay up and wait for them just to, well, to make sure that, you know, they got home safe. Now they're much older now, but. You know, even, I don't know, there's just something that part of your as a mom never goes away. So, you kind of transitioned us there. Let's talk about high school. Let's talk about what's different about those high school years in terms of that back-to-school anxiety. What would we tend to see?
DR. AMY: So I think some of the issues at middle school tend to occur again at high school because you are changing buildings. Usually those are brand new teachers, brand new coaches and a lot of times a high school is not just … the kids that are coming to that high school have not just come from one middle school, but from multiple middle schools. So many times there's new kids too. And so that that same feeling, those transitions that you are experiencing going from elementary to middle school—new building, new teachers, new people—will occur again at the high school stage because it's a bunch of “what ifs,” right? What if I don't know anyone in my classes? You know, What if my teachers don't like me? What if they don't get me? What if they don't understand me? What if I'm not as good in basketball at high school than I was in middle school? So some of those same things will begin to emerge again with that transition. But we see a different type of pressure, fear from the demands of academic rigor that emerge at high school and performance anxiety begins to emerge, right? Because these are high stakes years. Now, the grades I make in high school will matter for college entrance. How I perform in sports will matter for scholarship opportunities for college, right? Will I know what I want to do with my life by the end of the high school years? Right? So there's all these new pressures and new demands and new stressors for performance that we didn't get to see in middle school. And if there's an undiagnosed learning disability or a learning struggle, right, that we have not seen an intervention for yet, they are going to be magnified at the high school level because of the changes in academic rigor. And so that, too, can create school anxiety, right, because this, you could have kids that got all A's and B's up until now who then are beginning to get C's and D's because a learning struggle has been magnified.
SANDY: And that's because there's so much more of the pressure for the student to be the learner versus being taught the information, right? They have to do the reading. They have to take the notes. They have to do the research. They have to participate in some way. Because we're, if they are to move on to college, we're preparing them for that exponentially more on the college side as well. Learning how to learn doesn't necessarily show itself in those early years, because they're being guided in the process and their hands are being held all the way through and they're given lots of practice, but all of a sudden in high school, they've got to perform. So again, that performance anxiety starts to kick in.
DR. AMY: Absolutely.
SANDY: Okay. So, let's talk about ways that a parent can help support at this stage of the game because it's a little different, right? We want to, I think, support, but also allow them to stand on their own two feet a little bit more and encourage them that way. What would you say for parents at this stage?
DR. AMY: So I think it's really important to provide ways to build resilience to the stress that is automatically going to occur with high school. And so we have to find ways to support things that are teenagers do well and enjoy doing and want to do. And so I talked about not using phones for reward or consequence. And so I want to encourage parents not to use extracurriculars as rewards or consequences either. So if you have a child who's a wonderful athlete, who's passionate about sports, then we need to support that because successes and participation in something that our kids are passionate about that they're good at that builds resilience to the stress over the things that they are worried about or they're not as strong in. And so we need to encourage participation, but then make it possible. Right? So, ensure that we're helping them to find transportation for their extra activities that they want to participate in. That we're helping them find ways to pay for it. You know that we're making sure that it fits their schedule, that they have the uniforms that they need, that they have the equipment that they need. Anything that we can do to encourage that participation will build resilience to the stress of school. So Dr Robert Brooks talks about “islands of competence,” those things that kids do really well and how, when we can support those things that they do really well, that helps build resilience. So that's one way. Another way that we help them build resilience to stress is to teach them ways to regulate their emotions. And we do that first by modeling ways that we cope with stress. If they see us falling apart over the stress of work, right, then that just creates additional stress and anxiety for our kids. And so they have to see us say things like, “Man, I had a hard day, but I'm so glad to be home and to be with you guys. I can't wait to connect over dinner.” You know, “I'm going to go spend some time journaling for a few minutes and then,” you know, “let's have a family movie night.” Or, you know, whatever. I think it's important for us to talk out loud about the ways that we cope with our own stress, so that kids can see that there are healthy ways for doing that. And I think it's important that we teach them young about self-care, right? So what are the ways that we can help care for ourselves so that we can handle stress better? And so, you know, whether that's taking breaks, whether that's journaling, whether that's making it a family value, you know, that we go to church services on Sunday or that we have family movie night on Friday or whatever we can do to help our kids know the value of taking care of ourselves and self- care. I think that helps build resilience as well.
SANDY: I think one of the last things that happens at this stage of the game for kids and for parents is that sometimes we assume our kids know how to manage their time. And they may not. They might need some extra training or help or guidance, suggestions for them to be able to find tools that resonate with them to be able to manage their time more efficiently. I seem to have this conversation all the time with adults that, you know, we don't teach this in school actually. It's just sort of assumed. You know, many teachers will teach like the planner route. Well, that planner paper planner might not be the tool for your ADHD child who can't remember where they put the planner. So do you have any suggestions for that? Because that's a huge piece, executive functioning are, you know, our prefrontal cortex is offline at this age. Like there's not a lot, there's a lot of things happening as they're growing and developing. How do we help them build tools and skills that help them lessen their stress?
DR. AMY: Yeah, so I love that you talk about executive function because one of the things that we need to help our kids develop is that ability to plan and execute. But part of successful planning and execution of that plan is motivation and buy-in and control. And so we can't come up with that plan for them and expect it to be successful. And so this is a problem-solving conversation. Right where we say something like, “Hey, I've noticed that you have struggled to remember to turn your assignments in on time. So I would love to help you brainstorm some solutions to that.” And so you open this conversation because you've recognized a pain point, right? And so they know it's a problem. And so when you're just saying, “Hey, I'd love to help you generate some possible solutions to this.” And so then you come up, you have this conversation, you come up with a plan, you help them enact that plan and then the secret to success is revisiting it, right? It might fail. That might not be the most successful plan. And so you have to say at the end of that first conversation. “Okay, let's try this for a week or two, and then we'll see how it's going.” Right. So make sure that you put that open-endedness on it. So then it doesn't feel punitive when you revisit it, right?
It's part of the initial plan, right? We're going to revisit how it's going. And so then you a week or two later, “Hey, How's it going?” “Well, I've, you know, I still forgot to turn in four assignments.” “Okay. Well, it sounds like that's not the right plan. So how can we adapt that plan or try something new? What do you think?” And it trains the brain to think in a problem-solving way. And it might fall flat at first. If our kids aren't used to problem solving like that, we might have to provide some potential ideas in the beginning, right? “Hey, I wonder if this might be a good idea.” Right? And so kind of get them trained to think that way and then those conversations become more natural. Right? Like when you go, “Hey, let's problem solve. Let's brainstorm.” Right? Then they'll be like, “Oh, yeah. Okay. I know how to think that way now.”
SANDY: And I think the key to that too, is that a parent then also has to remove themselves from the goal or expectation of, you know, “Let's make it a good grade in that particular class.” Because if you're doing that with your child, you're allowing them room for failure so that they can problem solve for themselves and taking, you're taking you out of the equation so that they will be more successful in the long-term. Is that what I'm hearing you say?
DR. AMY: That's exactly. So you're teaching them life skills.
SANDY: Right.
DR. AMY: And so these problem-solving skills are something that they will need to do for the rest of their lives. So personally, professionally, you know, as long as they're in school. Right? So obviously we problem solve forever. And then when, if they become parents, right, then they're going to have to problem solve, you know, as well. And then I love that you said, take the emphasis off the actual grade, right? Because we want the emphasis to be on the effort and the process. And what we hope to come out of that is it's a successful effort with a successful process that then beautifully leads to passing grades or good grades, right? But the grade is not what our focus is. Because what happens if that's our focus and our child tries and tries and tries and we have all of these brainstorming sessions and problem-solving sessions and we've tried all of these different, you know, techniques for success and they don't get an A. Then do you think they're going to want to put in that same amount of problem-solving time with us again?
SANDY: No.
DR. AMY: No. But if they can see that their effort made a difference in the struggle, right, then it's this baby-steps process, right? It's this iterative process of continuing to find what works for them.
SANDY: You see the opportunity to celebrate small successes too, which is going to have a snowball effect.
DR. AMY: Absolutely. And we need to be celebrating effort, right? So, you know, one of my kids texted me that he got straight A's in summer school in college. And my initial instinct was to celebrate this 4.0. And I said, “No. I am not celebrating this 4.0. I am celebrating how hard my kid just worked.” Right? And so that was my response to him over text was, “Woohoo!” with fireworks. “You worked so hard this summer!” Right? “You worked so hard. I am so excited for you!” Right? Because I wanted the emphasis to be on the effort. Because if he had, if he had sent me a text saying, “Hey, I got B’s in both my classes,” I would have responded the exact same way.
SANDY: Right.
DR. AMY: If he had responded that he failed. I would have said, “Oh, well, let's brainstorm how to be more successful in your efforts next semester.”
SANDY: Right. Because it's all a learning process. That's what we're really trying to impart at this stage of the game is that life is a learning process. I kind of equate it to the, you know, you mentioned when we were, we kicked off the high school section here that, you know, all of a sudden that performance anxiety, “What am I going to be? What am I going to do?” You know, one of the conversations I always had with my, my kids is that it's okay if they didn't know. It's okay if they had no idea what they wanted to do or where they wanted to go to college or what they wanted to study. What I really wanted them to figure out was what they were good at what excited them, what they wanted to work hard for. They might change their mind. You know, my son was a swimmer, he didn't end up swimming in college. So, you know, like there's lots of things that they'll get themselves involved in, but the journey of life isn't figured out at 18. Right? So they have to learn this process of trying things. Does it work for me? How did I do? How do I grade myself on my effort versus how my parents grade me on my effort? Do I feel like I put in, you know, the time and what I needed to do to get out of this, what I wanted to get out of it? So that's also a conversation that you can have of like. What do you think about it? How do you think that went? Are you happy with that C? Your child might tell you, “Yeah.”
DR. AMY: Okay. Right. And those conversations sound like, “So what are your goals for higher education? Are you planning to go to college? Are you planning to go to a trade school? Like what are your goals?” And if your child turns around and says, “Well, my goals are to get into an Ivy League school or into one of the military academies,” then that opens the door for you to be able to say, “Well, have you looked at the entrance requirements?” Right? You put it back on them. Right? Like you don't go, “Well, they require a 4.0 average and you don't have that right now.” You put it back on them. “Have you checked the entrance requirements?” “No, I haven't.” “Oh, well, why don't you check those and then see if, you know, your performance aligns with their requirements? Because if not, then you might need a different plan.” Right? Either you're gonna have to go to a different type of school, or you need a success plan. Right?
SANDY: Right. Right.
DR. AMY: So then you keep that conversation going. You throw it back in their court, right? They have total control over that process because you're saying, “Have you checked?” You know, “Have you checked? What's your plan? Do you have a plan?” You don't have to have a plan.”
SANDY: And to make sure you do that without any sort of judgment or tone, right? It has to be very benign. You're trying to get them … you're trying to be their prefrontal cortex for them, right? That's what's happening.
DR. AMY: Yes. I love that. Yes. And if you, if you say something that sounded judgmental, walk it back. You can say instantly, “You know what? I think that statement had some judgment to it and that's not how I meant it to sound. I was just trying to help you think through all of the possibilities.”
SANDY: You think social media plays a role in exacerbating anxiety at this age?
DR. AMY: Well, that's what research is showing. You know, the neverending comparisons. Because we don't typically post failures on social media, right? We only post successes. So if you are following very carefully curated Instagram profiles, right, where people are only sharing how successful they are, and they're not sharing any of their struggles or failures, then it does create a this idea, “Oh, well, if I'm not performing like they are, if I'm not achieving what they are, then I must not be good enough.” Then that puts an enormous amount of pressure, right? Then that comes back to the demands, the pressure, the performance anxiety, because “I'm not good enough. So now I have to work 10 times harder.” When in reality, that was a, that's a curated account that you're probably seeing and not just one curated account, but dozens, right?
SANDY: Right. So, let's take a minute, minute and read a note from our sponsor. And then when we come back, let's talk about how you would encourage high schoolers to access supports if they're really finding themselves struggling with anxiety.
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DR. AMY, let's talk about, at the high school stage, if we're starting to notice or see some red flags that our child is really struggling with anxiety, what should we do to encourage them? What kind of supports might they need?
DR. AMY: So I think an open, honest conversation about it is important. So remember we want them to feel a sense of power and control over their own lives. And so making an appointment for them and then telling them, “Hey, you have an appointment with a therapist after school today at 4:30” is not the way to make that work. So I think it starts with a conversation. “I have noticed that you've really been struggling. How would you feel about talking to someone about it?” Right? “Because there are people who can give you some tools to help manage the anxiety that you're feeling. Is that something that you would be interested in doing?” So that's how the conversation probably should start. So then, if they say, “Yes, I think that would be OK,” then you say, “Would you like me to help you find someone or is that something that you want to try to do on your own?” So many states allow kids ages 15 and above to make their own appointments. So, without a parent even knowing. The issue becomes you're typically on your parents’ insurance. So if you don't carry an insurance card, you're gonna have to get the card from your parents anyway. And so your parents are probably going to know. And because it's parents that are listening to this conversation, I'm just saying they do have the ability in most states to book their own appointment and they may want to. I would say 9 times out of 10 times, they're going to just be appreciative that you're willing to help them do it. And so then it becomes, you know, your job to, you know, find a therapist and make the appointment for them. But I would say, “Hey, when would you want to go? Do you want to go after school? Are there certain days that work better or not?” Right? Get them involved in that process and ask them, “Would you rather go over a video, you know, video chat like a zoom call with a therapist, or would you rather see one in person? Would you rather see a male or a female? Would you rather see someone younger or older?” Right? Try to get those preferences the best you can, you know, so that it's a better fit.
SANDY: That's a great suggestion. Well, our time is up. I can't believe that went by so fast and we covered a lot of ground. What do you want to wrap up for our parents today? What are the main themes that hopefully they gathered through those different ages and stages?
DR. AMY: Yeah. So I just want to say that we don't know how prevalent school anxiety is because it isn't an official diagnosis, but we know that it's super common. And so we want to try to normalize those feelings. We want to validate those feelings. We don't want to downplay them and we want to keep open lines of communication open. So anything that we can do to talk, to validate, and to connect, we're going to have the biggest chances of success, for helping to support our kids at all ages, you know, through this. And then just recognize that there might be symptoms that we can't manage at home, right? That if this progresses from fearfulness and worry to full up anxiety or panic attacks, school refusal that, you know, getting help from a professional would be the next step.
SANDY: Well, this has been an awesome conversation. We are out of time, but it's been so much fun talking with you about this, DR. AMY. This was a great topic suggestion. I'm glad we did it. If you'd like more information about Dr. DR. AMY Moore, you can go visit her website at DR. AMYmoorephd.com or visit us at learningrx.com to find out more about cognitive training and how undiagnosed learning challenges can really throw off anxiety and other learning processes. You can connect with us on Facebook. DR. AMY, you can connect with her at DR. AMY Lawson Moore and at the Brainy Moms. All our links and handles are in our show notes. Thank you so much for listening today. If you like us, please follow us on Instagram and Facebook at the Brainy Moms. Do it now before you forget. If you liked our show, we would love it if you would leave us a five-star reading and review on Apple podcasts so that we can reach more parents like you. If you'd rather watch us, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel. And if you want to see some brain training and action, you can follow me at the Brain Trainer Lady on TikTok. That is all the smart stuff that we have for you today. We will catch you next time.
DR. AMY: See ya!
