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Brainy Moms is a parenting podcast with smart ideas to help moms and kids thrive! Hosted by cognitive psychologist Dr. Amy Moore along with rotating co-hosts Sandy Zamalis, Teri Miller, and Dr. Jody Jedlicka, this weekly show features conversations and guest experts in parenting, psychology, child development, education, and medicine with practical tips to help moms navigate the ups and downs of parenthood. We're smart moms helping make moms smarter...one episode at a time!
Brainy Moms
Curfews, Dating, and Clothes: Hot Topics for Parenting Teens with Dr. Amy Moore & Sandy Zamalis
On this episode of the Brainy Moms Podcast, Dr. Amy and Sandy discuss some hot topics parents face when raising teenagers. They explore three main areas: curfews, dating, and clothing/hair choices, and provide practical tips for minimizing conflicts about those topics. Sharing personal anecdotes and expert advice, they emphasize the importance of flexibility, open communication, problem solving, values-driven decision making, and mutual respect in these contexts. They also touch on the impact of technology on parenting and maintaining trust with teens.
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Brainy Moms is a parenting podcast hosted by cognitive psychologist Dr. Amy Moore. Dr. Amy and her rotating co-hosts bring listeners conversations with experts on topics in parenting, child development, education, psychology, mental health, and neuroscience. Listeners leave with tips and helpful advice for helping moms and kids thrive in life, learning, and relationships. This episode is co-hosted with Sandy Zamalis.
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Hi smart moms and dads, welcome to another episode of the Brainy Moms podcast brought to you today by LearningRx Brain Training Centers. I'm Dr Amy Moore and I'm here with Sandy Zamalis, and Sandy and I were talking about what are some of those topics that cause conflict in families who are raising teenagers, and so we picked three of those topics to talk about today, and so those are curfews, dating and clothing and hair choices, teen fashion. So we're going to talk about how they create conflict and some tips for how to help resolve some of that conflict and minimize some of that in your homes. Hi Sandy, hi Dr Amy, let's get started, all right. So let's talk about curfews. Like, it's interesting because I considered myself really flexible when it came to curfews and I had friends who were really strict about their curfews and my mom if I was one minute late for curfew when I was a teenager, I was grounded for a week.
Sandy Zamalis:Yeah, yeah, that's my husband.
Dr. Amy Moore:What's his reasoning?
Sandy Zamalis:I think some of it for my husband. That's how he was raised. The funny story is my father-in-law used to tell them all right, you have to be back at the house by 11. But they didn't have to be in the house, they just had to be on the premises. So my husband would run home and he would stomp on the front porch so that they could hear that he got there and then they would proceed to talk on the front porch, but he was there on the premises. So I think some of that for him is that upbringing. And my husband's a military-minded guy. He very much likes order structure go to bed at a certain time, wake up at a certain time. Everything in his world just operates that way. So for the kids, I think for him it just one. He definitely came from the background of there's nothing good happening after a certain time, so you shouldn't be participating, right.
Dr. Amy Moore:That was a very common phrase to hear in the 80s right.
Sandy Zamalis:But also it just gave him peace of mind, because I'm the one who would get nervous and wait up for them. He wouldn't necessarily wait up for them, but at the same time he definitely wanted those curfew rules in place for safety. So I think that's where it came from for him. We certainly did battle over it in our house. If you were more flexible, I don't know what was it like in your house.
Dr. Amy Moore:So Jeff and I didn't argue over curfews. He was pretty flexible too. He grew up pretty flexible Like his parents didn't give him a curfew and so he didn't really. He didn't really land one way or the other on that. And I just remember thinking I want to trust my kids until they give me a reason not to.
Dr. Amy Moore:And so the rule that I had with my boys was I just need to know where you are and who you're with. Where are you and who's with you? And so it wasn't that they had a curfew, it's just that they needed to be accountable to me for their whereabouts. And the reason I wanted to know who they're with is in case I couldn't get a hold of them on their phone. I could call the friend that they were with right if there was an emergency or something. And they were always open and honest with me hey, I'm going to a school dance or I've got martial arts late tonight or whatever it was. And it just didn't seem like a big issue for us at all and nobody ever took advantage of it.
Sandy Zamalis:Wow, that was not the case in my household.
Sandy Zamalis:But, that may be also because of the more strict nature we had with curfews. I don't know, it's hard to tell. It's one of those chicken and the egg things right. It may be that you have kids that are just really good at complying with reasonable requests and you may have children that want to push every boundary they have as far as they can push it, and sometimes it has nothing to do with your parenting. It's how they're wired and you have to navigate that with each child individually. I know we definitely had to navigate it differently with my son than we did my daughter. My daughter was much easier in terms of we knew where she was, we knew what was going on, whereas my son was just constantly trying to seek that independence in ways that weren't best, that didn't serve him best. So we were constantly having to reign him in with love to try to get him to understand that we had his safety in mind and to trust us a little bit.
Dr. Amy Moore:Was anything successful there? What worked?
Sandy Zamalis:For my son. That's a great question. In hindsight I would say what worked is just the constant conversation that we had. We just constantly tried to have open conversation and constantly negotiating when boundaries were crossed and tried some consequences, but those weren't always successful. I would say we were more successful when we were able to converse and really treat him as an autonomous person that could have some say. But sometimes we had to have consequences because the boundary lines were egregiously crossed. It's a dance. I don't know that there was one particular thing that we did really well, but we have a great relationship with both our kids and even as adults, and I think having that open communication is where it has to be. You have to continue to adjust and it may be we were being unreasonable sometimes. We weren't always right.
Dr. Amy Moore:Yeah, and I think sometimes we get into that mindset of I'm the parent and I said you needed to do this and disobeyed me. Therefore there must be a consequence. And I think that my advice to parents who are sitting in that spot would be to adopt a problem-solving approach, because ultimately you want to sit back and go. What is the purpose of a curfew? The purpose of a curfew, in my mind, is not to just have an arbitrary rule. It's for safety, your kid's safety. It's so that your kid gets enough sleep so that they can function in school and in sports or whatever activity they participate in. And you could argue that it's for your sleep too right, if you're one of those parents that doesn't go to sleep until your kids get home. And then it's for self-control and self-regulation right, that ability to manage your time well and to make good decisions. So sleep, safety and self-regulation right, that ability to manage your time well and to make good decisions. So sleep, safety and self-control, all right. So if you buy into that idea that's the reason that you have a curfew and not just because you think you should set one Then you have to look at okay, my child did not meet their curfew.
Dr. Amy Moore:Right, they stayed out two hours late. They did not call, I did not know who they were with, and so this is how I would handle it, and, as a psychologist and parent coach, this is the type of advice that I would give. All right, your kid gets home late, you hug and kiss them and say I'm glad you're home safe, and I'll talk to you in the morning, because nothing good happens in an argument at 2 am Nothing, that's true. You're exhausted, they're exhausted, and it's just not worth it, right? And the reality is you need to get back to bed.
Dr. Amy Moore:The longer you stay up, the worse it becomes. So then, I think the next day, in a calm state, you say I noticed you had a hard time last night getting in on time, so let's talk about what happened, give them an opportunity to explain, and then I would probably say something like because it was so hard for you to make it by 1130, I wonder what it would look like if we rolled that back to 11, since you were pretty successful getting home by 11 the last few times. Something like that. You'll get a little bit of pushback, but it's not a okay. You're grounded for two weeks, right, it's. Maybe we need to just tighten the reins a little bit. Let you experience some success and then loosen those up again.
Sandy Zamalis:Yeah, I like that approach, especially the let's talk about it in the morning when, as a parent, your fight flight freeze is going to calm down, Because, if you're like me, you've imagined all the worst case scenario things that could have happened to them. I do think it's interesting now with smartphones, because it's so much easier to helicopter them in a way, because you can track their whereabouts, right. Yeah, because you can track them. There's apps where you can know exactly where they are, how fast they're driving. You can. There's apps where you can know exactly where they are, how fast they're driving.
Sandy Zamalis:It's just so many intrusive things that, as a parent, it can be helpful. But at the same time, I have this like weird catch 22 with it because, like my parents knew none of those things about me, I turned out okay. Having that much knowledge is a little bit hurtful, I think. From a parenting perspective, it's almost too much information and it doesn't foster trust, like you were explaining a little bit earlier. You have to be able to trust them that they are at the place they said they were going to be and they're who they said they were going to be with. They said they were going to be with. So what would be some tips you would have for parents in that case, where we've got all of this technology now that can help us but at the same time I think it hurts us.
Dr. Amy Moore:Yeah. So I think it goes back to what is the purpose. What do you see as the purpose for putting one of the tracking apps or using one of the tracking apps on your kid's phone is the purpose so that you can try to control their every movement? Then I would question why do you feel the need to control their every movement? That's probably the bigger issue there. But if it goes back to safety, then do you need to track their every movement? Or if you've had a conversation with them hey, where are you going and who are you going to be with, and about what time should I expect you to be home? Then it becomes oh, they said they'd probably be home around 10 and it's now 1030. I might just pop that up and see if they're on their way, and I think that's okay. But watching their whereabouts all night to make sure they're where they said they were going to be is more a reflection on your ability to trust them rather than their ability to earn trust.
Sandy Zamalis:Right and it mirrors our anxiousness. I think really.
Dr. Amy Moore:But I think it feeds it too. It feeds it For sure. Yeah, I don't think that's helpful at all and under no circumstances would I recommend tracking your child's every movement, because if you feel the need to track your child's every movement, then there's a bigger trust issue there. Right, right that should your child be alone, if you feel like you have to track them the whole time.
Sandy Zamalis:Do you think it like sets kids up for issues on the dating side of things too, I don't know. It's like you're modeling this weird security mindset where you're just constantly a voyeur over someone's whereabouts and then you get into the dating world and then all of a sudden you're then taking that same model and applying it to this new person in your life, wondering where are you?
Dr. Amy Moore:You mean tracking your boyfriend. Yeah, yes, exactly, yeah, yeah. So it's really interesting. That mindset is really interesting because for you and I, we didn't have that. No, not at all. Right, either they called us or they didn't. Like we sat by the phone, we couldn't even carry our phone in our pocket. Right, it is a new world.
Dr. Amy Moore:Yeah, yeah, my kids shared they all have Life360, sharing with their significant others that they chose to do for one another, and then that way they could see oh, they're stopping at the Thai restaurant to bring takeout over. So I'm going to see if they're on their way, if they've picked it up yet, how far out they are. And so I think that if you use it in a hey, I'm just checking real fast, since we have plans, or, oh my goodness, they were supposed to be here an hour and a half ago and I can't get in touch with them, let me make sure they're not in a ditch somewhere, just like you would do as a parent, right, or a spouse Right, or a spouse Exactly I think that's okay, but that's not okay if you're tracking their whereabouts because you don't trust them. Because if you have to track their whereabouts because you don't trust them, is that the right relationship for you.
Sandy Zamalis:I saw this whole video meme this week where a husband was talking about. You're at that stage in marriage where you absolutely are tracking your whereabouts because you can't remember where you are half the time. You need your wife to guide you home. But my husband and I share through. We have iPhones so you can find my friend or whatever through your iPhone and even to this day, like he'll track and see if I'm on my way home so he'll know when to put dinner in or he travels for work. So this morning he texted me. He made it to the office but I knew that because that he made it because he left really early.
Sandy Zamalis:It was just one of those things. Yeah, I'm with you, though I just wonder if it doesn't feed that neurotic kind of anxiety, though, like we really don't need to know that much information about others, even our kids. Like we have to learn how to trust others to do what they say they're going to do.
Dr. Amy Moore:And again, I know I keep harping on this, but if we don't trust our loved ones, then we have some problem solving to do, regardless of the relationship, which is a different episode. Yeah.
Sandy Zamalis:So for kids that really struggle with this you talked about maybe walking the curfew back a little bit. What are some other ideas for consequences or ways to reshape that curfew discussion? That aren't things like taking things away I know we've talked about it on the show before. Like taking their phone away is not a good idea, especially for teenagers. I know people will push back on that. They don't like that as a recourse. But what are some other tools in our toolbox that we could put into play?
Dr. Amy Moore:Yeah, it's interesting, I do want to sit there for a second. We did get some pushback on my recommendation not to use the phone as punishment, because the number one buffer against mental health crisis for teens is a connection, and so if we remove their ability to be connected to a good friend or their boyfriend or girlfriend, then we disrupt that connection and that could have an impact on mental health. And so to choose something else to use as a consequence. And so we did get some pushback on that. That seemed out of touch with current advice, and so I dug into some of the most recent research on that, which indeed supports letting teens be connected to their friends as a way to promote mental health, and so I stand by that. And it would have taken a lot of disconfirming evidence for me to change my mind on that recommendation.
Dr. Amy Moore:But I did want to do some due diligence and say, ok, have I missed something new in the research? But what I found was the research still continued to validate that recommendation. So you have to do you as a parent. But that is my recommendation is not to use the phone as a consequence. Now that does not mean you should not put limits on social media. You can absolutely put limits on social media. I am talking about not putting limits on 888-555-1212 to reach their best friend, that's what.
Dr. Amy Moore:I'm saying I don't think that's a real number, by the way. I hope not. I hope that's not a real number. I was just saying that as an example of just the phone. Okay, what was the question?
Sandy Zamalis:What other tools can a parent apply in these scenarios where you've got a child who is pushing past those boundaries and having trouble with something like a curfew?
Dr. Amy Moore:So I love Dr Ross Green's approach to putting behaviors in different categories, so putting behaviors in a non-negotiable category, a negotiable category and a let it go category. And when he wrote his original book the Explosive Child back in the 80s, he called them baskets, and so basket A, basket B and basket C, all right. So I think that I would look at again what is your purpose for curfew? And if the purpose for curfew is safety and that is the primary purpose then I would argue that safety goes in the non-negotiable category. It's non-negotiable that you have to be safe, and so if that is the case, then maybe you parent with consequences. I just am a firm believer that most things are negotiable and that safety is relative right. Is it because you're afraid something might happen or is it a real risk that you're trying to prevent from happening? Right, and a lot of times it's just parents being afraid something might happen and living in the what-ifs and that gray area is a slippery slope. So I would look at myself first as a parent what do I want from this? And I would also look at how much arguing am I willing to do over this and to what cost to my relationship with my child? At what cost to the relationship with my spouse? If, at what cost to the relationship with my spouse? If my spouse doesn't agree with me, right, we have to let go of that whole.
Dr. Amy Moore:Kids need curfews, okay, do they? My recommendation is to be flexible, based on the activity and instead of driving a hard line in the sand. Your curfew is exactly 11 pm and if you show up at 1101, you get a consequence that is so hard to impose, it's so hard to enforce and it invites conflict. If you just choose it based on the activity and the day and who they're with, then there's room to negotiate and there's room for you to speak into that. Hey, I am not comfortable with you being out until 2 am because it's New Year's Eve and there are a lot of drunk people driving on the roads. Let's talk about what this would look like. What do you think is reasonable? And put the power back in your child's lap. That builds relational equity. Anytime that we can give our kids power and control, wow, does that go a long way? Right? But you're just loosening the reins by doing that, and that's a problem-solving approach. You're teaching them ways to regulate themselves, right? Okay, what is reasonable?
Sandy Zamalis:I love you pointed it out, but I had a little like quick phrase that I, when my kids were younger, especially during their teen years and I know I've mentioned it before but it was rules without relationship lead to rebellion, and I would just go through that mantra and I think it's still true, no matter their age. But it's just like what you highlighted, that relationship is the key. It is the number one thing to focus on and if you're in a battle, especially if you're in a rebellion battle, you have to look at that relationship piece and figure out if there's a problem there first, before you can fix the boundary issue. Like you've got to deal with that relationship piece first. Something's happening there that's causing that rebellion. It could be that we're being too strict and we're not taking their concerns or wants and needs into consideration and there needs to be some more wiggle room. But that was, I think, a life-saving little phrase that helped us.
Sandy Zamalis:Rules without relationship lead to rebellion.
Sandy Zamalis:So that's a fun, easy little phrase, and when my husband would get into his like military kind of mindset, I would be like and he would oh yeah, he would go through that with me because it is just really hard, especially if you in general are a more structured human, like you're just someone that really craves that structure and wants everything to be in alignment, like that all the time. Having to deal with that relationship piece is always tricky. It's always hard, especially if you just want to lead and get them to follow, get those children to follow. But sometimes you've got to kind of open up, widen the net a little bit so that they can still operate and practice their own leadership in their own lives as well.
Dr. Amy Moore:Absolutely, and we're talking about kids who are either going to leave for college or leave the nest in some other way right when they become adults, and so if we've done all of the deciding for them, then they're going to have a really hard time self-regulating. But when we can involve them in that process, why do you think that was not such a great decision? Or what do you think is a reasonable time for you to be home? Or, hey, what are the steps that you're going to take to ensure that you're safe tonight? Those are things that they're going to need to be thinking about for the rest of their lives. And if we're just imposing this arbitrary timeline okay, you have to be home by 11 and not 1101, not 1107, then that doesn't teach them self-regulation. All right, let's talk about what would we like to talk about? Do you want to talk about driving or dating?
Sandy Zamalis:Ooh dating.
Dr. Amy Moore:Dating.
Sandy Zamalis:We alluded to it.
Dr. Amy Moore:Yeah, so that's a good segue into it. Okay, so when did you let your kids start dating? How old were they?
Sandy Zamalis:I don't know that we had a rule on that, believe it or not. We didn't have an age, because some of it's just cutesy, relational things, and we homeschooled for quite a few years. So my son was in 10th grade and my daughter was in eighth grade, before they went into public school and so dating when they were younger and before they got licenses and all that kind of stuff was dictated more about where they were in clubs or my son was on the swim team. So they all dated each other on the swim team, but they saw each other at swim practice and an occasional weekend event. It wasn't anything major. Yeah, we didn't have any hard and fast rules on it. How about you guys? Yeah, we didn't either.
Dr. Amy Moore:I will say I am a parent of three boys and I know maybe there are more considerations that go into deciding that age for girls. At least some parents do. And again, is that a safety choice? Probably kids were the same. They went out in groups in middle school. They went out in groups even as freshmen in high school. I don't think that my boys actually started dating one-on-one until they were driving, which makes sense, right? You're not alone if you don't know how to drive, really, because somebody is driving you to see one another. So it's usually a parent or a parent driving a group of kids.
Dr. Amy Moore:But the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends 16, age 16. So they say groups at age 14 and 15 that really give kids an opportunity to learn the social nuances of talking to people that they might be interested in dating later and so going out in groups at 14 or 15, but there is this big jump in maturity that happens. There's a big jump between 14 and 16. And, yeah, the AAP guidance is not allowing single dating before age 16. That's their general recommendation. I would say that there are exceptions. You could have a pretty mature 15-year-old who would be okay to go to a movie on a date. But you could also have a very immature 17-year-old who would not be okay to go to a movie on a date. So I think you have to know your child too.
Sandy Zamalis:Yeah, yeah, I just always encouraged my kids to have lots of friends. I think that's really what I feel like they grew the most in. I think those friend groups are just so important in navigating lots of hard things. Just so important and navigating lots of hard things, but also just friendships in general, just being able to have a friendship with and have to deal with things that are uncomfortable conversations, not always agreeing all the time. There's definitely a lot of growth that happens in those group friendships and dating, I think, especially for girls, can be isolating.
Sandy Zamalis:So for my daughter, I just really wanted her to try to maintain a large group of friends as long as she possibly could. And that may just be because I know in my head that's what happened to me when I was in those teenage years I would lose friendships because you'd start dating and then you were single-minded, single-focused, and then, when it didn't work out, you're trying to come back to friendships that may or may not be there because you neglected them when you were solely focused on this other human. So I just wanted her to try to balance that a little bit better. So I tried to encourage that as much as I could.
Dr. Amy Moore:Yeah, what do you say to parents who view the dating process as courtship and so really impose strict guidelines on their kids because they view it as courtship for marriage?
Sandy Zamalis:Oh, that's a hard one. I've definitely been in those circles. It wasn't our mindset, though, so I mostly listened to those parents and gave them that grace. That's how they wanted to raise their kids. Put it in the same bucket as knowing what you want to be when you grow up, though.
Sandy Zamalis:When you're at that age, knowing that's the person that you're going to spend the rest of your life with at 16 is a very tall task. So for me it was stressful to think about it because, again, that same career mindset, thinking that they're in everything, seems like I have to decide right now, and my whole fate is in this decision. So, whether it be dating or school choices or career choices, I think it's just better to help our children know that they're on a journey and that if you are a Christian and you're thinking about dating and marriage and that courtship kind of mindset, I always just tried to reiterate to both my kids that they would know when they knew it would be clear and obvious to them that this is the partner, that this is the person that they were meant to marry, because all the pieces would fall together. It would feel like God's hand was on it.
Dr. Amy Moore:Yeah, I think that's a lot of pressure to put on a 16-year-old. If you have the courtship mindset, I think it's a lot of pressure on both of them really to think oh no, if I break up with them, my girlfriend's mom is going to think how horrible, because she was expecting me to court her daughter through the whole marriage process. I just think that's way, way too much pressure.
Sandy Zamalis:I have fallen guilty of putting that kind of pressure on my kids, especially when they dated someone I really liked for various reasons.
Dr. Amy Moore:Yes. So do not fall in love with your child's first girlfriend or boyfriend. Don't do it, because it's just as painful for you as it is for them when they break up. I felt like I lost a daughter when my oldest broke up with his first girlfriend, because I had welcomed her into our family. We became friends with her parents, so we did things with her, and so it was devastating. I think I was more upset when they broke up than he was, and so I mourned that loss, and then it was hard for me to re-engage with the other subsequent girlfriends right, because I was protecting my own heart, and so I might've come across as a little cold in the beginning, because I didn't want to experience that kind of loss again, right? So that would be. My encouragement is just to be accepting and warm, just like you would be to any other friend that your child brings home, but don't fall in love.
Sandy Zamalis:It's such a funny thing because it's definitely a conversation no one has from a parenting perspective of hey, get to know the person, welcome them, be kind and generous with them, but then you also have to let them go if they end up leaving. And it is. It's a weird. It's a weird headspace to be in. In fact, both my kids are older now, they're in their later twenties, and because they're not in my home anymore, I think it's harder when they're in your home, because then the person's at your house all the time. But now that they have their own spaces, they have their own lives.
Sandy Zamalis:My one request to my kids is that at this point in the game I honestly I'm happy to meet their friends, but I don't want to meet any significant others unless they're really thinking that this might be the person. Because of that, because I do, I fall in love with them. Because of that, because I do, I fall in love with them. So I want the chance to fall in love with them and get to know them and support and be their cheerleader throughout the process, and I can't do that if I feel like I'm being yanked in. I'm sure there's probably a podcast just on that topic in general, somewhere, I think so I think we should do an episode on what do those boundaries look like?
Dr. Amy Moore:How involved should we be in our adult children's relationships? Who gets to decide those boundaries and then how do we navigate those? Because that's an issue for parents of adult children and their significant others, for sure, and I've had to learn that.
Sandy Zamalis:I think the hard way, but I think we're going to stick to adolescents and teens today, since that is and when they're in your house and they're there hanging out watching movies, eating dinner regularly, it's just a good idea to be mindful that this might be a transient person and that you should just show them love and grace, but not fall in love with them.
Dr. Amy Moore:Exactly. So let's talk about do kids need a chaperone? Right? So how do you feel about teens being in the basement hanging out watching a movie together, alone, With no one in the house? No, If you're upstairs and they're in the basement, where you know, in the media room, watching a movie.
Sandy Zamalis:Our rule in our house was that people could be over. They could, but doors had to be open. Yep.
Dr. Amy Moore:That was our rule. The door had to be open.
Sandy Zamalis:Yeah, and that was we. Kept it super simple. That way, again, I think you want to be welcoming to people in your house and, again, trust, building trust and relationship and just making sure your kids know what the boundaries of the house are. It's just really important. But, yeah, just that was our role. We did not chaperone them in every way. If they have siblings, that comes in handy.
Dr. Amy Moore:Especially younger ones. What's she doing? Are you going to kiss her Go?
Sandy Zamalis:see if your brother wants popcorn. Exactly.
Dr. Amy Moore:Yeah, no, we had the exact same rule that doors had to be open, and I think that it's super important to have had the conversations leading to how we respect the person that we're dating. Like that you have to have respect for the person that you're dating and that means respecting that person's body, respecting that person's personal boundaries and personal space and chastity and whatever their values are and your values are, like you have to have respect. And so if you've had those conversations all along, then saying, hey, the rule is the door needs to be open, then that makes sense, right, because you're not violating. You're not violating that boundary anyway, so it doesn't matter that the door has to be open.
Sandy Zamalis:Yeah, and kids are going to find a way.
Dr. Amy Moore:Absolutely. If that's the choice that they're going to make, then your rule of having the door open does not mean they can't go be in a car somewhere, or in the woods or wherever kids find to do things.
Sandy Zamalis:It's just holding that space for them to practice that trust with you, practice that respect for their partner, not being necessarily afraid to come talk to you if things don't go perfectly well. You've got to give them room to figure those things out Absolutely, and I just was always a believer. I'd rather have them in my house. I would rather my house be the safe place to come hang out at all times.
Dr. Amy Moore:Yeah, my house be the safe place to come hang out at all times. Yeah, yeah, and I think that we were super careful to not impose our wishes for their relationships on them, right, because I wanted them to be able to come and talk to me if they had questions, if they needed advice, if they were wrestling with something. Because if I share hey, this is the way I think relationships should look and then something deviates from that, then that would make it harder for my kids to come talk to me. For example, if I said I want you to save yourself for marriage, because that's what relationships look like, and if I had a child who decided not to save himself for marriage or was considering not saving himself for marriage and wanted to talk about that, if I had already drawn a hard line in the sand, then he might not feel safe coming to me. And so this was a completely hypothetical example, it just popped into my head.
Dr. Amy Moore:So I think that we have to be super careful how we define what everything should look like so that they feel safe coming and talking.
Sandy Zamalis:Yeah, it's interesting when your kids start to date. I think it gives you an interesting mirror as to what you have modeled and what you haven't modeled. As a parent, I know I think I grew up in the generation where I honestly never saw my parents fight. I never saw them battle anything out, and I definitely modeled that with my kids as well. I shielded them a lot from any discussions that my husband and I had. We didn't include them in those. In fact, the joke in our house discussions that my husband and I had, we didn't include them in those. In fact, the joke in our house was that my husband, michael, and I were one. So they would, because it would keep them from trying to triangulate. Go ask mom, go ask dad. So whatever dad said, that's what mom's going to say, because dad and I are one. But it didn't.
Sandy Zamalis:Yeah, I found out when my kids started dating, especially in the teen years. We hadn't modeled really well some of those hard conversations, or I know there was an actual fear that my daughter had expressed to us that there's no divorce in our family. Not because that's a rule, it's just that no one's gotten divorced. So it's this long lineage of perfect marriages and I put quotes up for those who aren't watching. Not perfect, but everything's behind closed doors and so not opening that discussion up for my kids, I felt was a really hard place for my daughter to be in, because she just gave her so much burden to think I'm never going to be able to meet someone because I had an issue with this particular person.
Sandy Zamalis:And what does that mean for me? How do you guys, how have you been able to stay married this long? You guys never fight. Like all of those things started to bubble up and it was like well, no timeout, let's talk about this Absolutely, we fight. And so it forced me, when they did start dating which I think was a good thing to open up that relational conversation with my kids that I wouldn't have had, that was respectful and just shared. This is how dad was thinking, this is how I was thinking, this is how we compromise. It just gave that nice window of conversation for them and hopefully took the burden off. I hope it took the burden off for them that life is a long journey and a ride and, again, take your time to find the right partner.
Dr. Amy Moore:Yeah, I love that. All right, we have time for one more topic. Okay, All right, we can talk about driving, clothing and hair or allowances versus jobs.
Sandy Zamalis:Let's do clothing and hair. Okay, I feel like that's such an interesting conversation, right? Every decade has its thing, so every decade has its thing.
Dr. Amy Moore:Yeah, I think that. So our kids a lot of times well most of the time use their clothing and hair choices to define who they think they are in this period of time, especially kids who don't go to school with uniforms. So this is they're homeschooled or they go to public schools and they can wear whatever they want, and so it's a way to express who they think they are and what their identity is and the kinds of things that they like. And I think we have to be really careful. Faces shock, all right, that is the craziest thing. I cannot believe you're wearing that outside the house. I think we have to be really careful to honor their creativity in their fashion sense.
Sandy Zamalis:Agreed. It's always just so interesting to me because, as fashion trends come and go, you know that's temporary, right. You know that baggy pants will turn into tight pants, will turn into plaid pants and all black pants. It's just always gonna change. Having that ability for them to be, I think, creative is really important because of that expression piece.
Sandy Zamalis:I think where I get hung up is when and I'm from a Christian background I am conscious of dressing modestly. When we get into the modest discussion, though, I get super uncomfortable, and partly I think it's because of my own upbringing and partly I think it's because of my own upbringing and I'm a large chested individual, and so I always try to help other parents and friends see that, like, what looks good on one person is going to look really different on me, and it's unintentional, and so you might have someone you're dealing with some body issues right Someone who only feels safe or comfortable or that they're being modest by wearing things that are super loose, super baggy. So you have to think about some of those body issues as well, because if you get into a modest type discussion, it can get a little tricky because you want people to feel confident in their clothes. That was a conversation I remember having with my mom when I was battling this as a teenager. She used to tell me if you've got it, flaunt it. But I was not of that mindset, so it was a weird headspace for me to think that through. But yeah, you have to be able to have that open conversation with your kids.
Sandy Zamalis:When you're that age and you develop early, it's just like a constant thing in your world. Everyone talks about it. It's always on the table for discussion. Whether it be friends or annoying eighth grade boys, it's just always a conversation. Like it's just always a conversation. So it was just easier to hide in my clothes at that time. And learning how to be confident in how you set out in the world and the clothes you choose to wear is just really important and something we all have to grapple with. And I don't know that it goes away as we get older. I don't know that it goes away as we get older.
Dr. Amy Moore:Sure, I think, especially as women we do wrestle with, does this dress make me look fat? How many times do we ask ourselves that I get it? And I think that we have to be super sensitive to our daughters, who might have developed early, like you did, and be willing to have that conversation right and say hey, I noticed that you've been wearing baggy clothing. Are you trying to hide your breasts or do you just like to be comfortable? Is there anything that I can help with in terms of shopping or choosing fashion right? Would that have been helpful to you?
Sandy Zamalis:At the time, Maybe I don't know. It's hard to look back and decide that Again. When you're self-conscious as a teen, that can be really tricky, I know as a parent I would try to do exactly that. We'd go shopping together. I would suggest things. I wouldn't always win that conversation, but I do know that when you go shopping sometimes other people will pull something out for you that would look great on you, that you never would have picked for yourself. We would go back and forth and I tried to be as neutral as possible and, again, not take offense. I didn't like the item I chose but, yeah, you got to give them that power, that space. I know I will get on my platform here and share.
Sandy Zamalis:I think in my thirties I finally found a store that did bra fittings like really good bra fittings with European sizes, Cause I'm sorry listeners, if you're listening American sizes are terrible. They do not take into account all the body shapes that we women possess. So I found a store that did that and so when it was time for my daughter to wear a bra and those things I did, I took her and I got her fitted right away, because I didn't want her to go through that process with me, Because I think that was part of the issue for me is that nothing ever fit. You couldn't buy a bathing suit that fit. You couldn't just grab the undergarments you needed at the store. None of them would fit.
Sandy Zamalis:That is where you just sit and cry in the dressing room. It's so frustrating, sit and cry in the dressing room. It's so frustrating so to actually go somewhere and feel pretty and it makes you stand taller, Like literally. My daughter remembers when I went because I was in my thirties and I remember she came with me and she's like mom, you just like you just were different afterwards Cause it just it definitely made you feel like okay, like I feel put together, Like literally everything's in its place.
Dr. Amy Moore:I love that you said when it came time for your daughter to begin wearing a bra, you just automatically went. And I think that when we normalize these things, right, hey, this is what we do. Hey, this is what we do as women. Right, when it's time to start wearing a bra, we go and we get fitted, because it's hard to just choose your own right. So if we normalize that, so that, no matter what size breast you have, right, when it's time to be fitted for a bra, you go, be fitted for a bra, and then, as you grow, you may need to it changes.
Sandy Zamalis:Yeah, it changes. You change through your lifespan, exactly.
Dr. Amy Moore:You have to go. Imagine if you had been fitted for your bra at 13 or 14, the difference it might have made in your self-esteem or your fashion choices and all of that.
Sandy Zamalis:Yeah, Like in hindsight I would say that would be something I wish, but I don't know. That it was a thing. Then I thought you just went to the mall and it's not like I would even say it's not even like your typical Macy's fitting. We went to an actual bra shop. That is their main thing that they do and it was life-changing for me and I hope that it's definitely helped my daughter be more confident. So I highly recommend it.
Dr. Amy Moore:I think that's great advice. Yeah, let's talk about boys for a second. I know that one of my kids was about 16 and was going to a job interview and he got dressed and was wearing ripped jeans with a contrasting color underneath the rips and he was in solid black, except for these ripped black jeans with this contrasting color. And I remember thinking, oh, we can't wear that to a job interview. And that was on the tip of my tongue, right. I almost said, well, you can't wear that to a job interview. And that is not what I said.
Dr. Amy Moore:I stopped myself and I said is that what you're wearing today to a job interview? And that is not what I said. I stopped myself and I said is that what you're wearing today to your job interview? And he said yes, and I said that is a super cool outfit, right, but I want to ask you something. Let's assume that the person interviewing you is my age and they're super conservative, and this is a style that they've not seen or adopted yet themselves, right? What message do you think it might send to them if you wear that to this interview with someone old like me? And he said it just might make me look more creative than everybody else being interviewed today. So how do you argue with that? It's difficult to argue with that, and so he wore it and got the job.
Sandy Zamalis:So he was right, his personality shown through Yep.
Dr. Amy Moore:Yep, but I think that it's important to have that conversation because I think he has remembered a conversation like that right Every time that he's gone to have a meeting with someone older or had a job interview. In your sense that it might make a difference.
Sandy Zamalis:Yeah, I think it's important to also remember, as parents, that the world we have our perception of the world and how we grew up in the world, but that is not necessarily the same place that our children are right, like you had pointed out. Maybe the person is like me, just food for thought, but at the same time I do think a lot of those rules we had growing up have just relaxed. They're just not the same, and so my husband and I are constantly having this discussion because it rolls over into so many different areas, but I would say clothes is one too, even from his business and what he does every day.
Sandy Zamalis:I'm a business owner, I hire people. Like that notion of what's appropriate or what dressing etiquette is really gone anymore. So we as parents almost need to let that go as well. We definitely want to put our best foot forward, right, we want to make sure we show up clean and put together in some way, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that vision of what is the right power suit or whatever when we go to a job interview or if we're just dressing for success. I think that dressing for success has changed a bit. It has a lot more wiggle room changed a bit.
Dr. Amy Moore:It has a lot more wiggle room. I agree, and I think that, again, relationship is more important than our genes, for sure, and I think that we could give the advice pick and choose your battles. But I would like to say, why is that a battle? It shouldn't even be a battle, right, that is your child showing what their identity is, what they believe their identity to be, and it's a. It's one area of their lives where they have some creative control and, again, whenever we can give them power and control, that builds relational equity and then self-confidence for them as well. So I recommend not arguing over fashion. Probably a good point. So we need to take a quick break and let Sandy read a word from our sponsor, learningrx.
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Dr. Amy Moore:This has been a super fun conversation about three topics that can create conflict in families raising teenagers, and so I hope that some of our advice and tips spoke to you today. If it did, we would love it. If you would share this episode with a friend who might be wrestling with similar struggles, and if you like our show, we would love it if you would leave us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts so that we can reach more parents like you. You can find us on every social media channel at the Brainy Moms. You can find us on the web at thebrainymomscom. You can also find Sandy at thebraintrainerlady on TikTok, and we don't have any more smart stuff for you today, so we're going to catch you next time.
