Brainy Moms

Launching Your Adult Child: Fostering Independence without Severing Connection | Dr. Jack Stoltzfus

• Dr. Amy Moore • Season 5 • Episode 511

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Are you struggling to launch your adult child? Have you ever found yourself wondering if you're overstepping boundaries with your adult child? Maybe you're caught in the cycle of questioning how often to text them, whether to offer advice, or if you're supporting them the right way? You're not alone. 

On this episode of the Brainy Moms podcast, Dr. Amy and Sandy talk with Dr. Jack Stoltzfus – clinical psychologist, America's launch coach, and author of "The Parent's Launch Code". Dr. Jack reveals that the transition to adult independence is challenging precisely because "the problem with young adults is they're adults, you can't control them." This fundamental shift requires parents to abandon old power dynamics and embrace a partnership approach.

Dr. Jack explains why this particular parenting stage feels so difficult, sharing eye-opening statistics including that more than 50% of young adults between 18-29 now live with their parents. Rather than viewing this as failure, he redefines successful launching as achieving self-sufficiency and responsibility, regardless of living situation. The real measure of success is whether young adults can stand independently while maintaining a caring bond with parents.

The conversation takes a poignant turn when discussing estrangement – with one in four young adults cutting off communication with parents for months or indefinitely. Dr. Jack offers practical strategies to prevent this heartbreaking outcome, including his innovative "five-year plan" approach that helps young adults envision their future while creating manageable steps toward independence.

Whether you're wrestling with questions about charging rent, setting boundaries when adult children return home from college, or navigating the delicate balance between offering support without enabling dependence, this episode provides compassionate guidance. Dr. Jack's framework of combining unconditional love with what he calls "backbone" (clear values and boundaries) offers a roadmap for maintaining connection while fostering independence. For every parent wondering how to love and launch simultaneously, this conversation is an essential guide to launching your adult child with confidence and care.


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Dr. Amy Moore:

Hi, smart moms and dads, welcome to another episode of the Brainy Moms podcast brought to you today by LearningRx Brain Training Centers. I'm your host, Dr. Amy Moore, here with my co-host, Sandy Zamalis, and Sandy and I are gonna have a conversation with our guest, Dr. Jack Stoltzfus. Dr Jack is a clinical psychologist and America's launch coach. His mission is to help parents support their adult child's transition to self-sufficient independence while maintaining a caring bond with their parents. His book, The Parent's Launch Code: Loving and Letting Go of Our Adult Children is going to be at the center of our conversation tonight, so we're super excited to welcome Dr. Jack.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Sandy Zamalis:

I have been waiting I think three years for this topic and I'm super excited to talk about parenting adult children because I think it's the hardest timeframe and it's hard to scale because it goes on for so long. But help us understand how you landed in this area and this expertise.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Sure, I was going to say I think it is a really tough time because, as one of my workshop participants said, the problem with young adults is they're adults, you can't control them, and so the old power and control and direction thing is just not. They're adults, you can't control them, and so the old power and control and direction thing is just not going to work. You're going to have to make a shift on that. But in terms of my background, actually my story goes back to just some estrangement and struggles I had with my father growing up in my teen and young adult years. That led me into doing a dissertation and trying to define and describe the difference, the concept of differentiation, emotional differentiation of adolescents from their parents.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

And then so I did that work and then, fast forward to about 11 or 12 years ago, I started seeing more parents who were coming to me with concerns about their kids mainly around not getting traction on developmental tasks that they needed to pursue, and so I thought I have this research background, understanding what separation, healthy separation, is, and then I've got three young adults myself, so I thought and then I've got three young adults myself, so I thought maybe I'll just concentrate on this area. So I pretty much exclusively work with parents of young adults, involve the young adults in the process, because I try to build this partnership between parents and young adults in the direction of adulthood, how to help them move toward adulthood. So that's my background. I'm a psychologist.

Dr. Amy Moore:

So I found it interesting in your book that you said your dissertation advisor advised against this topic for your research. Why was that?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Well, that's the standard line Don't pursue something that you're emotionally involved in your dissertation. Do something just. You could care less about some small little detail that you want to pursue or research and do that. So it was probably good advice. It maybe took me longer to do this, but I think I was. I felt like I really learned something important to me personally out of it, so I don't regret doing it.

Dr. Amy Moore:

But I think it's not.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

it's good advice to not do that. I think Right.

Dr. Amy Moore:

I texted Sandy earlier and said I'm going to have a hard time with this episode. I'm afraid I'm going to cry through this whole episode because I have decided I have three adult sons just launched the youngest a month ago and I have I've decided that this is by far the hardest season of motherhood. Not the teenage years, not the toddler years, but this idea of not knowing how much do they need me, how many times a week should I text them? Should I give them advice or not? It's this constant wrestling with. I don't want to overstep, because I know that my role has changed now, but at the same time, I want to make sure they know that I still love them, that I still care about what they're doing all day, and so I've just decided that this is the most challenging season yet. So I was excited to read through your book and to talk to you, because I know that you've built an entire practice on this season for parents, so I'm not alone in this plight. And Sandy said the exact same thing when she texted me back.

Sandy Zamalis:

She said you are not alone in this, no, and there's not enough resources out there. Really, it's a very niche area to try to find help in.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Oh, absolutely. I mean, if you do the look at the Google parents of young adults versus other parenting things, there's a very small percentage of the resources out there devoted to this and I think it reflects a bias in our culture that by the time your son or daughter's 18 or at least 21, you're done parenting, it's over, so we don't have to do any more parenting. We all know that isn't true, and there's been this elongation of young adulthood too. Now that extends 18 to 29,. Much different than 50 years ago where I think it was a little bit more typical to say hey, it's 18 years, you're 18 years old, I raised you. Now kind of hit the road, I'm done, I did my job, and partly that I think that is a result of over time and with my generation, boomer generation we began to invest more in the happiness and success of our kids than in past generations, and I think that's continued into the Gen X and the millennial and now the Gen Z's too. So when they're not happy or they're not successful, we stay involved. Maybe we can help some more. So they may be 20, 21, 22, and we may stay more involved. But yeah, it's a challenge.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I talk about the challenge of letting go and my website's called parentslettinggocom because it starts early on. You have this infant and then you're letting go, they're toddling away and you've got all these letting go steps along the way, and I think this one of letting go into young adulthood is, in some ways, the hardest, because you're now, they're now outside of your sphere of influence and and I think what you were saying, I think Amy is too how much do you, how much do you try to be involved and in a supportive way, and how much do you step back and let go and say that they have to make their own decision on that? One of the challenges is you hear some parents say I don't give them any advice at all, I just step back and don't give any advice, and I've never been comfortable with that approach. I like to give my kids advice and I think in some ways, they want to hear that. But I use this kind of sandwich approach, which is to say, okay, I'm going to give you my experience on this decision you have to make and some things I know about it, but it's your decision. I put it right up front, like that. Then I give them that. Here's my advice, here's what I think you should consider and then I say at the end of this it was a sandwich. At the end of that is, again, it's your decision. I'm not going to be mad at you if you don't take my advice.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Do what you need to do, and I found that works pretty well. My kids seem to accept that. They don't feel like I'm telling them what to do at that point. I'm really operating more like a consultant. You know we get consultants and I worked at 3M for a number of years Get consultants, come in there, they tell you what you already know and you say thank you very much, we're not going to follow your advice. So it's a good way to try to hit that sweet spot that you're talking about, amy, of how much to be involved and how much to stay back too.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah, for sure, you talk a lot about vulnerability and transparency. How would you apply that to those particular conversations, to advice giving?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I think that and I quote Brene Brown in the book, as when she talks about vulnerability as the route to intimacy and I think parents sometimes hold back on talking about their own struggles, their own vulnerability, or even just I'm worried about you, or I'm concerned because maybe that they'd lose some credibility in that I got to be the one that is in charge and has it all together and all. But I think it opens up that channel of intimacy and, with relationships being highly reciprocal, you're more apt to get more openness coming back to you from the young adult too.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I say look and I think people can parents can talk about their own young adult experience, what worked and what didn't work, and also acknowledge it was a different period of time. Things went differently then than they do now and I think that's an adjustment I have to help parents make, that it's a different period of time now and what worked with you may not work with the parenting approach to young adults now.

Dr. Amy Moore:

So you talk about. You quote a statistic that more than 50% of young adults 18 to 29, are living at home, more than any time in history in the United States. Why? What's happening? What's different now?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

And that's a statistic that came from the Pew Research Group back in 2020. So we're at that COVID period, that pandemic period, so that influenced that statistic. Right now it's still 50%, more than 50% in the 18 to 25-year-old, or 18 to 24, probably closer to 30-some percent if you're in the 18 to 29% right now, but it still is high. And there's an attitude or statistic that 39% of adults think that kids living at home is a bad thing, and I would argue with that point.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

But I think it's the kind of a letting go process from both ends I think parents having a little harder time letting go and the young adults, because of the parents' involvement, may have a little harder time letting go from their end, and there's some economic issues right now that clearly play into this. The house is out of the question for most Gen Zs right now, and even affording apartments is difficult, so it tends to extend the time of being at home. Maybe I can make some money and be able to save some money to move out, which I don't think is a bad thing. I think there is this bias, though, in our country that if you're not out of the home by your early 20s, that's a concern or the alarm bells go off when it's 26, 27, 28.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

If you go to India, I had this podcast with this Indian podcaster and he was saying in India, if you're 23, 24, 25, living outside the home, there's something wrong.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

That's a problem, because they have this multi-generational experience and these kids are at home. 20% of couples live with their parents in India too, so it's a unique part of our cultures. So I think it reflects some of our independence emphasis in our culture. Well, you should be on your own type of thing, but for me, the litmus test of whether a young adult is launched or not doesn't have anything to do with where they live. It has to do with them being self-sufficient and responsible. And then I had a little piece on that's different than, I think, many of the people that write in this area, and that is that they have a positive connection or caring bond with their parents, because I'm concerned about the emotional part of that separation process too, so I put that in there so they could be living at home. They've got a job, they're contributing, maybe paying rent or helping with cooking meals. In my opinion, they're independent, they're launched. They don't have to be living down the street or something like that.

Sandy Zamalis:

One of the other statistics that you had on your website that I floored Amy with when I read it was that one in four young adults cut off communication from their parents on average for months or some indefinitely, and I definitely have noticed this trend of estrangement and it's like I told Dr Amy it was like my mortal fear.

Dr. Amy Moore:

So I'm telling her. I'm like that's lies from Satan. What are you talking about? You have a great relationship with your kids. And then she quoted your statistic. No wonder you're afraid of one in four right, yeah, that's a scary number.

Sandy Zamalis:

Can you talk about that a little bit?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

That's the lower end. You were being generous. Yeah, I mean it's. It's no, that's probably accurate, but the they talk about an average of four months and I've read some other statistics that it's longer than that that these young adults cut off their communication from their parents. But it's a heartbreaking situation for parents when that happens, and sometimes there's no obvious cause of that and I don't know if it's the young adults that want. I just want to show I can make it on my own. I don't have to talk to my parents.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

And that probably plays into it, because most of them reconnect at some time plays into it because most of them reconnect at some time, except some of them will just plain cut off for good, and that's really, like I said, heartbreaking for the parents. It's a loss for both the young adult and the parent, because it's not the way it should be. You should be able to have this caring bond with your young adult and your young adult with their parents, so it's a concern. I view my role as working upstream. I'm trying to prevent that. I want to prevent that from happening and so far I've been pretty successful because I work to bring the parents and the young adult together to work in a partnership way toward this responsible, self-sufficient independence, and so they're working together and so it doesn't feel like I'm getting pushed out where there's a big argument about whether I should be out or not. It's really based on the young adult's plan and the parent working with them.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

And even at times where I've had parents say look, you're not accepting the rules of the home. It may be things like you're stealing from us or you're using drugs, or there's things that you're doing that we just can't tolerate in the home. So it looks like you want to live someplace else. Let's help you find some place to live and we'll work with you and maybe we'll help you with some money for an apartment We'll get, I'll give you some furniture or something. So that kind of softens that it's not just like the kid may say you're kicking me out. I say no, you're choosing to live someplace else. You can live here with if you abide by the rules, but you're choosing to live someplace else and let's help that person live someplace else. And I think that softens that kind of sense of rejection that they might feel.

Sandy Zamalis:

Do you find that, for the estrangement issue in particular, that it usually centers around boundary issues, whether it be a parent or the young adult just trying to figure out those more adult relationship boundary pieces that need to get put into place?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I think that can be true at times. I think some young adults may want to, as part of their ability to feel like they are independent, put some very tight boundaries around how much time I spend with you, whether you're helping me or not, what information I give you, what I tell you about what I'm doing. So I think that sometimes plays into their need to kind of establish that sense of their separate, capability to be separate and be self-sufficient. So I think you're right in that.

Dr. Amy Moore:

So I love that you mentioned that it's a choice right, that you have the option to live within the boundaries that we set or to honor the parameters of living here. And if that doesn't work for you, so you're either breaking my house rules, therefore you're choosing not to follow them. I just love the agency that you bring to that, that it isn't just about the parents making these hard and fast rules and then imposing a consequence on their adult child. Our choices come with consequences for our entire life. Sure.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

And it honors their decision, either verbally to leave or by their actions to leave. Okay, we'll support you. And in that process of trying to find housing and trying to find a way that you can be on your own and I think there's sometimes it just gets to a point where it's time to leave this not working, mean it, maybe it's not the rules, but there's, it's contentious, it's not going well. Let's try to find a way you could move someplace or get to another facility other than our house yeah, I am I laugh because just a story about art my particular family.

Sandy Zamalis:

But so my son graduated college in March of 2020. So right when COVID hit and he had to come home and at the time you couldn't even interview for jobs or anything like that and he had been away for five years in college and my husband my husband always laid the groundwork early on that they were expected to launch. That was his hard and fast rule We'll help you, but you're expected to go off and do your thing. And so when things weren't really coming together, I remember my I was having a conversation with my son and he was just like, if I'm just going to have to get any job, why don't I get a job in Reno and live with my friends? It doesn't make sense to live here.

Sandy Zamalis:

Because I know he felt so contained in our house, like he could not be free, and I think that was the best thing, the best decision he could have made, and he drove across the country and went to live with friends and we helped him in that decision. But but a lot of times families have a hard time having those hard conversations of what's best, especially if there's any fear or anxiety on the parents part about what's going to happen. Do you have suggestions for families having these kind of launch kinds of conversations? How do we take our anxiousness out of the discussion?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

And it's unfortunately. I think the anxiety of parents is somewhat contagious and the young adult can feel that anxiety at times too and that affects their ability to believe in themselves maybe and feel like they can be successful, because mom and dad seem to be anxious about whether I can be successful or not. Maybe I can't be. So it does play into it. I think that just having very kind of heart-to-heart discussions about where do you want to be in five years, I do this five-year plan with a young adult. I figure that's about as far out as they can go. They say what's your lifetime plan? I don't know. Even five years, I don't know. But usually they'll come up with something in five years. And I always say that the parents are just so relieved when they say they're not going to be living at home in five years, thank you. But I've never had somebody say they just want to be living with mommy and daddy in five years. It just doesn't happen. That's what it's kind of wired up to be independent. So then we say, okay, let's say how are you going to get there? Usually I'm working with 18 to 20, 29 year olds that age group. But I've worked with a 16 year old recently. He's not going to school. He's just he's just refusing to go to school, telling me I'm not going to go.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I did a five year plan and he's going to graduate from college in five years, at 21. Then I go back and say now, how's that going to work? We're back to your five-year plan, but you're not going to school right now. How are you going to be able to get there? So now it becomes something like his decision about whether he wants to go to school or not, because his five-year plan is to get to that college graduation. It's not the parents saying why aren't you going to school? What's the the matter with you and getting on them and trying to get him to get up in the morning and all that once it's part of his plan and he starts thinking, yeah, I guess I'm not going to get to that college graduation if I don't get to school. So I really believe in working off the young adult's plan. And the parents sometimes cringe. When in five years, I want to be a tattoo artist, parents are, oh geez something like that hey young adults change jobs seven times during their 20s.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

So I tell them that this too shall pass. Things will change. So let's just get behind him and talk about how you can support him in terms of what you'll do to support that plan, but also what you won't do, because he or she needs to stand on her own. And then, if there's expectations around the home to be clear about those as part of the five year plan, then too. But I used to get sucked into the domestic disputes. I used to get sucked into the domestic disputes.

Dr. Amy Moore:

You get pulled in and they're just arguing.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

He's playing video games or he doesn't buzz his dishes back from his room and he's just they're just arguing. If you get into that, then it's like the police going into a domestic dispute. You're going to get hit by both people, probably. So if you try to represent the young adult, the parents are irritated with you. If you try to represent the parents, the young adult doesn't want to hear from you.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Okay, let's talk about.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Let's point to the future, let's talk about this five-year plan and it's your plan, the young adult, because it's your life. At this point, parents can't tell you what to do anymore, so it's your life, and then try to get the parents to come around that and to support that, and that really seems to be working pretty well, that kind of approach.

Sandy Zamalis:

Do you think our school system lacks that ability to do that, though, to really help kids who don't? Maybe they don't see themselves like on an academic path, because it's an overwhelming question to ask a 16 year old what are you going to do with your life? What are you going to be when you grow up?

Dr. Amy Moore:

Right.

Sandy Zamalis:

But if you break it down, I love your idea of that five-year plan, but I'm guessing from a parent perspective you could even break it down to a one-year plan. What do you see yourself in a year? Five years is too big, but it's that breaking down a vision so that it becomes more doable and it's easier for that individual child to make decisions on that plan and for a parent to say hey, I saw you made this decision. I'm concerned, it goes against your plan. Tell me how these two connect, because I'm not seeing that, and help me understand so these two connect, because I'm not seeing that and help me understand.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Yeah, what I typically do when I interview the young adult, I start with that five-year plan when are you going to be living? Will you be living alone or, would you think, with a significant other? And then what do you think you'll be doing?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

And that can be vague, but then I go to if you want to get to that position where you're independent, you have your own job and your own money, your car and all that. What do you need to do in the next six months to get to that plan? And then the next three months and then the next two weeks? So I want to get that kind of idea of the steps, the process to get there and get them started. I don't you go four year, three year, whatever. If I can get them started and get them, get some momentum going, that really that gets things moving in the directions.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

And then when they put the plan together and the parents say, okay, here's how we'll help you, here's what we're not going to do, and then we meet after that and say, okay, it's two weeks later. What have you done in your two week goal that you need to get to in order to go to this five year plan? And then I, we meet a month later. It's all. I try to do it all in a positive. What has happened positively. Try to not end up beating this kid up oh, I didn't do that. And make the call or whatever. What did you do and how do we help you? If you're having trouble doing that? Is there a way we need to help you more to get your resume together, to call the schools to interview for jobs or whatever, but I'm not I don't there's a lot of.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I just actually wrote just a blog that I'm going to post here shortly on on enabling, because I hear that from parents a lot.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Oh, I'm enabling the child, not the young adult not to be able to be independent because I'm doing too much for them. But I think that there's a way that you can just sometimes it just helps to get the jumpstart to do a little bit, but they have to step up too. You don't want to do it for them, but okay, I don't know about flying to jobs. I'll drive you to the interview, but you do the interview. I'll help you with the resume, I'll give you some input, but you're going to write the resume, basically. So I don't think those are ways that parents are somehow hindering or doing, enabling, in a negative sense of the word. Again, it fits into this partner. I'm going to partner with you, but you're going to be doing this. I'll do some of it, but you're going to have to do the rest.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah, it's scaffolding that planning and reasoning part of executive functions and it's beautiful. There's a difference between scaffolding and doing for.

Sandy Zamalis:

And it's really mentoring, right, because you're trying to walk alongside them as they're about to do something foreign and different and scary. Right, I'm going to walk into this big building by myself, as a an adult, to do an interview. How nice to. It's actually a nice thing to have someone drive you so you don't have to worry about where to park your car and all that kind of stuff.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Those are all important, I think, connection building things yeah I don't get into thinking that's enabling and that it's this kind of the negative connotation that's developed over the years from the mainly from the substance abuse field and you're enabling them to be addicted by not allowing them to experience consequences and stuff.

Dr. Amy Moore:

You're enabling them to be addicted to living at home. That's about the same as their five year plan. Is that? I want to live with mommy and daddy? What are your? Thoughts on the gap year.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Oh, I love it. It didn't exist when I was growing up.

Dr. Amy Moore:

That would not have been tolerated.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

No, you're going to travel for a year. You're going to do other stuff.

Dr. Amy Moore:

No, and even.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I had. It reflects on my orientation at the time when my son was graduating from college. He was going to go to medical school and he decided to spend a year and go to Korea and teach English and I thought, well, that's not good, Maybe he won't come back or this is not going to work out, or it wouldn't be a good thing, and he said Dad if I don't do it now, I'll never do it because I'll get to medical school and I'll be working on family.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I just want to take this year to it. I couldn't argue with that. It made a lot of sense to me, but there was a little bit of anxiety, concern about that. I like not going to school anymore. Maybe I'll push off medical school for another year or two or something. I didn't know what was going to happen, but he was pretty clear. He went. Great experience came back, went to medical school. Has that rich kind of experience in his history of being in a different country.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah, my youngest actually took a gap year and a half and did a couple of internships. He traveled internationally with the Youth Symphony so he got to perform in the Sydney Opera House as a flute player and really just spent some time decompressing from the nightmare that going to school during COVID was and then just making sure that what he thinks he wants to do with his life really was what he wanted to do with his life. And so now he's back in school, double majoring in music, performance and psychology, and he has a five-year plan. And that wasn't something that we did officially, just it has evolved. Something that we did officially, just it has evolved. I found the people who struggled the most with my child taking a gap year were my parents?

Dr. Amy Moore:

oh sure that my parents just didn't get it at all yeah, that's very far.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

yeah, that's where I'm going back to my growing up and my parents saying, oh, that's not going to happen. So you know, yeah, and my parents were educated.

Dr. Amy Moore:

So that was crazy. Like you go to high school, then you go to college, then you go to grad school. Do you know that I was a junior in high school before I realized that college was optional. Is that right was optional, is that right? I just grew up thinking everyone automatically goes to college and so it wasn't until I was applying to colleges that I realized some people aren't doing that yeah, yeah, it's, and it's there.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

There are some tough situations where the young adult decided they don't want to go to college and it's already been planned. I had this family I worked with and they had saved money and this oldest son was going to go to the school in Montana, I think it was and they already had his father went there and they had some kind of special deal where the price was reduced or something, maybe because of the father's involvement there. I don't know.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

But he just decided what happened was he ended up having a girlfriend and she was going to stay locally, and so he decided I don't think I'm going to go and maybe I'll spend a year here working or whatever. And maybe I'll spend a year here working or whatever. But it was real hard for the parents to accept that, because they had this vision about how it was going to be and he had a different vision at the time. So we ended up delivering pizzas that was his job and then finally decided that I think he wanted to be a welder or something like that. He was a skilled trades and that's where he ended up, training at that. Ok, if that's what you really want to do, but I think it was. There was some real kind of added.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

That's part of a let it go process for parents, because probably for all of us early on we have some expectations about what's going to happen with this high school and then they're going to go to college and going to do these things and to be able to say maybe they might take a different turn, might do something different and be open to that. Supporting that, I think, is really important.

Dr. Amy Moore:

And what are the consequences of not being supportive of that idea? Not?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

being supportive of that idea. Certainly, there's a good bit of conflict around that, as there was in this situation that I described. There was a lot of anger, a lot of frustration, and the parents were clearly disappointed and wondered if this, and he ended up breaking up with a girlfriend. But he stayed in the house delivering pizzas, I think, for maybe a couple of years until he figured out OK, this is what he really wanted to do and then pursued this kind of welding opportunity.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

But it was a it was an uncomfortable situation. Here he is he's now 19. He's 20. He's delivering pizzas. He's now 19,. He's 20, he's delivering pizzas. He's in the basement and they don't have a lot of contact with him. He's not doing real communicative with them and they're wondering is he going to do something different?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

And I don't know what prompted him to all at once think okay, I want to do something in the skilled trades. But somehow that came to him and then he decided to move in that direction and has done well at that. He did try community college. A couple of classes just didn't go, didn't work out. So he just wasn't into going to school at that point and somehow got the idea that he could go into the skilled trades. I wish more young adults would look at those options in the skilled trades. There's so much of a bias, I think, in our culture that you got to go to college. That's where that somehow you're kind of a status issue in some way. And yet if you look at the earning power, if you go into the skilled trades and you earn a certain amount of money over time compared to the college student who comes out with a degree in, I don't know, communications or something and bounce around.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Some jobs there's not a lot of gap in the income over a lifetime period.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

There's the kind of status everybody should go to college or there's something wrong with you if you're not going to college and that's a shame that that kind of view.

Sandy Zamalis:

I mentioned in a previous podcast that I really think that college is the new high school for our kids because my mom in the seventies or no, probably sixties, late sixties when she was in high school they had all sorts of like enrichment and interactive activities. Now this is out in California at the time, so in her world she would say why don't you take a class on mystery writing? I don't have that option, but that was how she grew up. She got to try all of these things. There wasn't this rigid sort of like high school I would say syllabus that we're running down right now.

Sandy Zamalis:

And so none of the really trial and error stuff comes into play until college, and then it's almost, like you're saying, a little too late. So kids that would maybe thrive in more hands-on career like welding or electrical work or those kinds of trades, kinds of things, you either have to know that really early on in high school and we'd have a. We frown upon that a little bit, I think, in some high school communities, some areas. We don't necessarily value it, but it would have been great for them and then. But instead we push them on the college track, which maybe is not the right path for them. But if they could try it sooner, we could maybe get them more confident and building towards that launch a little bit easier, much quicker.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Yeah, maybe trigger their interest. I'm just thinking about it. I went to when I was in high school. I did wood shop and metal shop. I don't know if they have that and I don't think my son ever did anything like that. I don't think that was available.

Dr. Amy Moore:

My son took a drafting course. I remember that.

Sandy Zamalis:

And I remember my husband tells stories. My husband's a mechanical engineer and he tells stories about cause. My husband's pretty can be pretty domineering when he wants something and he wanted to be. He always wanted to be. He's a car guy. I always wanted to be a mechanical engineer. He always wanted to build engines. He wanted to work in Detroit Like he had a whole vision for his life.

Sandy Zamalis:

And so he walked in to the guidance counselor and was like I'm taking metal shop. And she was like arguing him out of it Cause he was on the college track. And he was like no, I'm taking metal shop. And he took metal shop one and metal shop two and he said by far hands down, best two classes he ever took and he uses it still today, which I think is kudos to him. But for most kids they're going to be like, oh okay, I should go this way it takes a certain amount of fortitude to have those kinds of programs at school.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

How do kids even know about the opportunities in the skilled trades? They don't learn about it. So if they don't go to college, then what do they do? Flounder around a bit, try to figure out what they might want to do.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Absolutely All right. So, speaking of college, what I see frequently is conflict that occurs when kids have gone away to school and then they're home for Christmas break or they're home for summer break. They've had all of this independence while they're away at school. They're able to manage their own schedules, what time they come and go, and now they've come home and the high school rules that the parents had in place haven't been adjusted. So what are your thoughts on negotiating that? What should that look like?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I'm sure both of you probably had those experiences. I've certainly had those where the kids are up late and they're clanging pots around. I got to get up and go to work the next day.

Dr. Amy Moore:

At 2 am.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

they're cooking, they're cooking, something they had stayed up late in school.

Dr. Amy Moore:

I don't know we got through it.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

But the other thing that occurred when they came home for those breaks and then if they were home in the summer, was now I had to worry about when they were out late, where they were, when they were at school. I slept like a baby. I don't know what was happening. I remember my daughter went off to school a local school and a conservative Christian college and she called me and one day and said I was out at three o'clock at this guy's apartment. My girlfriend and I went over to this guy's apartment I think she was hoping that there'd be some shock value to that and I said oh, I don't know, I was just sound asleep last night.

Sandy Zamalis:

I didn't know that.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Okay, how are other things going?

Dr. Amy Moore:

for you.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

But it was like, oh, she's experienced that freedom. That's fine. I don't know about it, I'm sleeping, that's fine. But when they're home and they're coming home at 3 o'clock that changes things all at once.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Because it impacts your ability, it steps on your toes.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Absolutely yeah. I mean, you're kind of well-being, your sense of just well. You end up feeling back into that more responsible role as a parent. When they're out that they are, they in the ditch, do they drive off the road, what, what's happening, type of thing. So I had two girls and a boy. I was more strict with the two girls. They couldn't go downtown minneapolis to the night nightclub. That's not going to happen, and I think they appreciate it. They would not let their kids get down there now. No way. They're even more clamped down on their kids than I was. Yeah.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Well, I had three boys and so I'm on the lenient side of rule setting, simply because I had a philosophy that I needed to know where they were and who they were with and everything else was negotiable. And until they gave me a reason to think that would not work, that system would not work, we went with that system and I think I got super lucky that the system worked.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

They didn't push those boundaries, yeah good, super lucky that the system worked. They didn't push those boundaries.

Sandy Zamalis:

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Dr. Amy Moore:

I want to talk about paying rent. Okay, that's a point of contention among parents, from family to family right, where some families think that if you are going to live at home you need to pay rent and other families would never charge their children rent. What are your thoughts on the pros and cons of that?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I pretty much say that if you're living at home, and I think I get good agreement across all the parents that I work with you're either going to be working or you're going to be going to school or you're going to be some combination of that. Doing nothing is not acceptable. That's not an alternative plan C or D that doesn't work. Alternative plan C or D that doesn't work. So if they are working and that's a good thing and if they're full-time, I like to make the argument that and they're living at home let's create the environment that would be most like what it would be like to be living on their own. So that means that they pay some level of rent, not the full price they'd have to pay out there.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

But I also encourage parents to bank that money and then use it to help them when they do move to an apartment at some point in time. But they need to be cooking meals, they need to be cleaning the room, they need to be cleaning the room, they need to be doing their laundry, they need to be responsible as if they were living with a roommate in a roommate situation. So I think the closer you can get to creating that kind of environment that feels like they're living like a roommate, you're treating them like an adult and they have adult responsibilities, the easier the transition is.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I might as well be living on my own because I don't have anybody telling me what time to come in and I, yeah, good idea. Yes, I've had some people say I like to try to make it so uncomfortable to be at home that they're going to want to leave to be at home, that they're going to want to leave. One person this was a kid who was smoking weed and giving it to his younger kids and they took him out of his room and put an air mattress in the hallway. He said you have to sleep in the hallway and I thought I don't think that works very well. I had another. I think I read someplace where you were supposed to give them the smallest possible room, even a closet that they can, that you put their bed in they would get so upset about being confined that they would leave.

Dr. Amy Moore:

I don't agree with that approach. Okay, I want to thank you for giving me a different perspective just now on the rent, because I was in the camp of I'm paying my mortgage anyway. I don't need my children to contribute to that, and so I felt, look, the economy's hard enough as it is. They need their money. I would never take it from them, and so it had not occurred to me that, again, that's a scaffolding opportunity. That's an opportunity to approximate what it'll be like when they are on their own, helps them budget their money.

Dr. Amy Moore:

And I have agreed with parents who have saved that money when they have charged their children's rent and given it back to them to help them. But I had not considered the value to the young adult before. I thought parents who charge their kids rent are trying to make it so they'll move out right, they'll move out without rules. So thank you for that perspective. So I hope there are other listeners right now who were on the fence about that or who maybe had drawn a hard line about that, that you opened their eyes as well.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Sure, I think you get to be reasonable. If they're taking classes and are working part-time probably not charging something at that point, but they're working full-time they need to be an adult participant in that family and that's in these multi-generational families. You have to pay into the family, whether it's called rent, or you put it into the common pot for the cover, the expenses or whatever. But that's just. That makes sense. You're in the family here and you should contribute in some way to it. But you can be pretty reasonable about that too.

Sandy Zamalis:

So what are some key signs? I know we're coming up close to the end of our time and we've talked a lot about launching and what a successful launch looks like, but what are some key things that you can give to parents that are listening so they can start making these steps towards a successful launch that maintains that connection?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Yeah, I think that I talk about these practices that parents need to invest in or strengthen, and it starts with unconditional love, no matter what. That, to me, secures the relationship, creates this sense that when they're out there on their own and they're stumbling around, they know, no matter what, whether they're doing well or not, their parents love them. And then I talk about getting closer to your kids, which is somewhat counterintuitive. Wait a minute, you should be backing off, shouldn't you? No, back off of the control and direction, but get closer in terms of supporting their path forward, their new identity, how they're trying to develop their identity and their independence.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

And then I talk about the practice of the healing, practices of apology and forgiveness, where I have a lot of parents and I think I always say parents are the guiltiest segment of our society. Oh, I didn't think I did it right, I must have done something wrong or whatever. And if that's the case, they need to just apologize for it. Let go of the guilt that way. And if that's the case, they need to just apologize for it. Let go of the guilt that way.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

And if there's some resentment on the young adult's side, that will soften that up too. And then you get to the point of, okay, you bring the unconditional love forward with now, the backbone, which there's a difference between unconditional love and unconditional approval for behavior. So you have to say, okay, I love you and these are our rules. We have certain principles or certain values honesty, keeping your promises, being trustworthy and those are the things that create a certain firmness, that gives the platform that they have to stand on their own. I like to think of a young adult leaning on the parent like this and because the parent is helping, doing everything for them, and what you don't want to do is just drop off because they'll fall down and you don't want to push them over. That's doing, but you want to stand up. So they have to stand up. Now, they have to stand up on their own. That's when you say no. That's when you say no, these are our boundaries or our limitations on that.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

So that stage is really important and I tell parents or ask the question how do I know if I'm doing the right?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

thing if I'm combining the love and backbone in my approach and I say ask yourself three questions. Am I making this decision or taking this action out of love and not out of fear, anxiety, frustration, resentment, anger, those types of things? Secondly, is my decision or my action consistent with my values, that is, I believe in honesty and being trustworthy and keeping your promises and those types of things. And then the third question they ask is my decision or my actions likely to increase their independence or their dependence? I can't give advice on every decision a parent has to make, but can give you some. Here's a way to test. Okay, I got to make a difficult decision. I'm getting pushed right now by this young adult to do something or they don't, I'm sure I want to do. Go through those three questions and then that final stage to do. Go through those three questions and then that final stage, final practice, is the letting go.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

And I encourage parents to write a letter. That is a way of saying goodbye to the young adult, as if they are going off to Europe or something and you may never see them again. And in that letter you say I love you, I have such great hopes for you. And these are the things that I've enjoyed in you over the years. Maybe these are some things I regretted. I wished I could have done something more here and you just send that, give that letter to them, and all three of my kids have that letter, so they know that love that I have for them and they know how my belief in them, that I have for them, and they know how my belief in them that I communicated in that letter and it's it.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Was it they could find it or not? Now they have the experience of that, with me giving him that letter so that's the letting go part to the last part of it.

Dr. Amy Moore:

So I love that. I think that's beautiful.

Sandy Zamalis:

Yeah, I'm like gonna, I'm going to make a point about it.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I can't keep it together.

Sandy Zamalis:

No, I like that thought. I like that chapter in your book too, where you walk through not the letter part but even just letting your kids know what you like about them and working through that process with, because they don't always know it, we don't always say enough of those things, so having it in writing would be beautiful.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Yeah.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah, I.

Dr. Amy Moore:

A couple of months ago I was thinking about my middle son while I was in church and I had this overwhelming need to call him right then and tell him.

Dr. Amy Moore:

And so I got up from being in the middle of church service, went outside and called him and said look, I'm not calling you for any particular reason, except to tell you how cool I think you are, how amazing I think you are, just told him several things that I just really love about him, and I cried through the whole conversation. But I just needed him to know, because I was overwhelmed with just these loving thoughts about him in the moment, and I thought I really ought to do that more often, like every time I think you talk about in your book, when you're frustrated with your young adult child, like it helps to go back and look at pictures of them when they were younger or to reflect on happy memories, and so I think that when those happy memories or really loving thoughts pop into our minds, we ought to share them right away, and it's so easy with texting now too, right.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Yeah, that's so nice that you followed that urge, that intuitive kind of desire to do that. I would hope most parents would do that too and not say oh, and then they might think it's corny or they might not like it or it might be awkward. Just take the time to say you love them. Take the time to say how much they matter and how important they are are to you.

Dr. Amy Moore:

now I'm gonna get emotional I'm sure he thought I was crazy in the moment, like but he won't forget that I'll bet, but it it had to land in a way that made him understand that I think he's so special yeah yeah, yeah, jack. How can our listeners find out more about all of these great pieces of advice you gave today?

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Give a little pitch on my book, which is the parents. It says Jack's copy on there. The parents launch code loving and letting go of our young adults, and that's what the loving piece is important to me, because it's got to be both. We have to love them.

Dr. Amy Moore:

At one point I thought about.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

I had a different title love to let them go or something like that, but it really is putting those two things together and then my, so it's available on Amazon, and then my website is called parentslettinggocom, so there's a lot of information in there. People want to go to my website and sign up. I do these blogs periodically and there's a lot of information on the website, too, that most of the blogs that I've written I'm up to about 150 of the blogs right now address issues that have come up with parents, parents of young adults that I'm working with. So there's typically, if you've got a question, how do I deal with this? It's likely something that I've dealt with in one of those blogs too. So thank you for asking me, matt.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Absolutely. Our listeners just get so excited about the advice that they typically want more, and so we love to be able to offer them resources from our guests, especially when you have a book that they can just go buy and devour, like Sandy and I both did as well. Dr Jack, thank you so much for being with us today. We really appreciate your time and your insights and your wisdom, and I just so much appreciate that you have devoted your entire practice and career to this really hard stage of parenting, so well needed and exciting to be able to have a resource to point people to from now on.

Dr. Jack Stoltzfus:

Yeah, it's a pleasure to be with you. Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed this, and your insights and your questions are really right, right on target with this.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Well, good, all right. Moms, Thank you so much for being with us today. If you like us, please follow us on Instagram and Facebook at the Brainy Moms. If you would rather see our faces, we are on YouTube at the Brainy Moms, and we would love it if you would give us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts so that we can reach more moms just like you. That is all the smart stuff we have for you today. We hope you feel a little smarter. We're going to catch you next time.

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