The Brainy Moms

Self-Harm In Teens: Advice for Parents Navigating Non-Suicidal Self Injury | Stacy Schaffer

• Dr. Amy Moore • Season 5 • Episode 531

Share episode

Teen pain often wants proof, and too many families discover self-harm the hardest way—by finding the evidence. Dr. Amy sits down with returning guest Stacy Schaffer, a licensed professional counselor, to unpack non-suicidal self-injury with clarity and care. We name what NSSI is and isn’t, explore why it seems to provide fast relief to hurting teens, and talk through what to do the moment a teen opens up. You’ll hear how shame keeps kids silent, how calm presence invites honesty, and why a clear plan beats punishment every time.

We dig into real-world guidance for parents, coaches, and teachers: how to thank a teen for their trust, offer choices for bringing caregivers into the conversation, and separate safety steps from secrecy-inducing consequences. Stacy explains the addictive loop—dopamine, relief, and reinforcement—that can build around cutting or burning, and how speaking to a teen’s own values and near-future moments (prom, summer jobs, sports uniforms) often lands better than distant warnings. We also highlight the long tail of scars and how regret can surface even after the behavior stops.

Most importantly, we share practical tools to bridge the urges: sensory substitutions like sour candy, ice, and specialized fidgets that create safe discomfort; 15-minute “urge surfing” to let intensity pass; and when tracking “sober days” can motivate rather than shame. We cover safety planning—locking up sharps without locking down trust—and the power of a supportive circle of adults beyond the home. Throughout, we keep the focus on curiosity over judgment and parenting the child you have in today’s always-watched, always-connected world.

If this resonates, subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a quick review. Your feedback helps more families like you!


ABOUT US:
The Brainy Moms is a parenting podcast hosted by cognitive psychologist Dr. Amy Moore. Dr. Amy and her co-hosts have conversations with experts in parenting, child development, education, psychology, mental health, and neuroscience. Listeners leave with tips and advice for helping moms and kids thrive in life, learning, and relationships. If you love us, add us to your playlist and follow us on social media!

CONNECT WITH US:
Website: www.TheBrainyMoms.com
Email: BrainyMoms@gmail.com
Social Media: @TheBrainyMoms

Visit our sponsor's website: www.LearningRx.com

Dr. Amy Moore:

Hi, smart moms and dads. Welcome back to another episode of the Brainy Moms Podcast brought to you today by Learning RX Brain Training Centers. I'm Dr. Amy Moore, and I am here with my friend and returning guest, Stacy Schaefer. I'm so excited that Stacy has agreed to come back for part two of this conversation specifically around child and teen mental health. Let me tell you a little bit about Stacy in case you missed part one. So Stacy is a licensed professional counselor with over 20 years of experience helping children, teens, and young adults navigate emotional and behavioral challenges. She is right down the road from me in Arvada, Colorado. She's the founder and director of Stacy Schaefer Counseling, and she specializes in both grief therapy and synergetic play therapy. So she's got extensive training. She's got a master's degree in professional counseling, a graduate diploma in Christian counseling, and she's certified in EMDR and Synergetic Play Therapy. So I'm super excited. Welcome back, Stacy. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be back. This is really fun. Yeah, we had such a great conversation and it we had to hard stop, right? You had a client and I wasn't done talking to you. So glad that I wasn't done talking. That's amazing. So I want to focus today on self-harm, non-suicidal self-harm, this trend that we have been seeing over the last few years, probably fueled by some social media as well. But it's it's a real issue. And not every therapist is equipped or experienced enough with kids and teens who are harming themselves to handle it in a gentle, appropriate way and to be able to coach the parents on their role in helping healing. So let's talk about that today.

Stacy Schaffer:

The self-harm issue is really hard and increasingly so, with the onslaught of being able to access like the internet and see things, same thing is an addiction that is easily triggered by like a visual. And so kids report that has been really hard if they're trying to be in recovery from self-harm and then they're scrolling and they see something. So my understanding is that Instagram has done a better job at censoring some of that. And so I appreciate that a lot on behalf of the kids. But yeah, I see so much self-harm for sure. Yeah.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Okay, so I think that there is a lot of shame around it, and I for not only the child, but the parent too. So I think so much of it is hidden and not talked about and not brought out into the open because as parents, you may feel like you have failed in some way, or you respond with anger and consequences because you are shocked and scared, as opposed to responding with care and compassion. And so I think that would be a great focus today.

Stacy Schaffer:

Yeah, I think for sure, because I think when lots of things go wrong with our kids, like we go internally and they're like, What have I done? Like, I mess everything up. Instead of starting first, kids are living in this fallen world with us, and so let's start there instead as opposed to there's something that you did. But I think that it makes sense. It's painful to see this child that you love like literally hurting to see like actual evidence of their pain, and which is like ironically part of the addiction. They're like, I can't communicate it well enough, so let me use my body as canvas. And so it I think it's a really hard one because I don't think I don't think that we see it in the way that they do. You're hurting yourself and they're like, but I'm trying to feel better. They're like, but that doesn't look better. I've seen a lot of kids engaged in self-harm over the years. I think it's interesting in this past year. When I've seen it before, but I've seen it a lot this year, and I don't know why, is a lot of regret for kids who are no longer struggling with that addiction, but the scars remain. And so show me things, and they're like, I can't hide, I don't have a problem anymore, but I can't hide it. And so what do I do? And so we talked about strategies like for the future. Once they're an adult, they want to get like tattoos to cover things, but it fuels the conversation for me for the kids that are currently struggling to be like, I just want to make you aware that like there could be challenges with this down the line because like kids just see in front of their face to be like you might be wanting a job interview, and it's really hot outside, and that could pose a problem if this continues, yeah, and I feel that's not the magic answer, but like that's I think a really important line of communication to have with our kids. Of this, it's not gonna fade. What you're doing is not gonna fade, and people without your permission are going to know about what you struggle with, yeah, but that has to land with conflict, right?

Dr. Amy Moore:

Teenagers are thinking about the here and now, and they don't necessarily have that future-oriented mindset. And so how do you gently how do you gently share? Hey, this could be something that will challenge you later in a way that doesn't say, oh my god, you're gonna regret this.

Stacy Schaffer:

I think it comes down to speaking to their values, like things like prom, like homecoming, going to the beach with your family, stuff that like you you think was happening for them to be like, hey, this is just up and coming. It's it is your body, like you're ready to do what you want with your body, just want to bring to your awareness. And sometimes I'll say to kids, I've had kids like really regret this, and they're like, You have? Because I think they also want to do what their peers are doing. So a lot of times kids will ask me, Do you have any other kids that struggle with this? I'm like, Yeah, and so I don't I don't think that's like necessarily the thing that's gonna turn their desire, but I think it's gonna play into seed in their head of yeah, I do want to go to prom and you don't wear long sleeves to prom. And so I think it's speaking to what they're into if they're like their sport shows like a certain part of their play soccer and they're cutting on their legs, that kind of thing. I think it's just another line of communication.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah. So I feel like we jumped in the middle of the conversation. So for our listeners, can we start at the beginning and just talk a little bit about what do we mean by non-suicidal self-harm? What are those behaviors? Let's just talk from the beginning. Sure.

Stacy Schaffer:

Okay. I like that we're now calling self-harm non-suicidal self-injury, because I think old school, we used to think that if you saw a kid cutting, that meant that they were trying to die by suicide. And we have discovered that it that is not the case. There is, there can be some correlation, but that it's not a direct one. That there is some in the Venn diagram. And so self-harm is something that oftentimes kids who are really hurting and are having a hard time expressing that they're really hurting, that they will harm themselves. And the research shows that it's not only like releases like chemicals in their brain that does actually make them feel better, but it's a way of expressing. I can't tell you exactly how bad my heart is hurting, but I can show you. And so it's like they're like, I know how to cope with this pain, I know how to cope with this blood, this like whatever, I know how to cope with this, I don't know how to cope with the internal psychic pain.

Dr. Amy Moore:

So I don't know if you know the answer to this question, but how do we know that the brain releases feel-good chemicals in response to cutting or burning? How do we know? Because we're not doing a randomized control trial to see that's not ethical. Let's not put you in a PET scan while you harm yourself. How do we know? Just behaviorally.

Stacy Schaffer:

I do believe there has been some research of people smarter than I have of what kind of happens in the brain, and we can find like that research. But I think it's I don't think it's like super complicated. I think it's just it like they get like a hit in the same way like when you scroll, that you get like a hit. So I don't think that it's super complex. I just think that something happens either like an adrenaline rush or like just dopamine flooding. I don't know. Okay, but I do know for sure that there has been research on it.

Dr. Amy Moore:

So you say that kids who self-harm can't express the pain that they're feeling. Either they've experienced a traumatic event or they're having a difficult time dealing with typical stress stressors in child and adolescence. Walk me through what the profile of kids and teens who self-harm. What's the typical profile?

Stacy Schaffer:

I would say a typical profile could be a kid that is more withdrawn. And we know a lot of times tweens and teens they start to communicate less, like to their family, so it's not everybody, but that start to be a little bit secretive. And I think a lot of them try really hard to win it for first starts to cover. And so if you're seeing inappropriate like clothing to the season, sometimes that's a thing. Like it gets really hot here, and I've seen kids that engage in self-harm wear hoodies like all summer, and that alone isn't like an alarm bell, just so we're clear, because some kids like hoodies and kids, like whatever, but they're like they're clearly like trying to hide what is happening. I think that kids that don't necessarily have someone to communicate with outside of their family. If there's if there's a coach, if there's therapist, if there's someone, usually those are the people that a kid is gonna confide in first if they if they do share about self-harm. So I think it's really important. I like it's my lifetime soapbox that kids need to have adults who care about them outside of their family that are safe. And so oftentimes they might do the first reveal to them.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah, absolutely. So then what should that adult do? How should that adult react to that reveal?

Stacy Schaffer:

Yeah, I and so self-harm is a really tricky one. It's a really tricky one because you want to like maintain like the confidentiality of a kid and their freedom and being able to talk to you, however, like that does lend itself into the violations of confidentiality because like they are hurting themselves, and I think that it really is a requirement to communicate to the parents as much as I think that's really hard for kids that are like I think like I I thought I could tell you everything, and you you can, but my job is to ep safe. But in in my particular context, oftentimes it's not I'm not the first reveal, like by by the time they get to me, so I don't have to do that a lot because there it is already a known issue. Um, if the issue escalates, then we communicate more. But I think that's for any adults listening, like that's it's too big to hold by yourself. And whether you're the parent or the coach or the favorite aunt, that it's too big to hold alone, even as an adult, in my opinion, that there needs to be at least some kind of supportive team or around the kid.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah. So you're the coach or the teacher or the favorite aunt or a friend's parent. Friends parent. And this is revealed to you by the teen that they are self-harming. And so your next step is to say something like, Thank you so much for trusting me with this or for sharing this with me. We need to talk to your mom now or your dad now. Like, how do you make that transition in a way that shows I want to help? I see.

Stacy Schaffer:

I often give choices in scenarios like that. Sometimes the bullying issue, like, is a similar way of how I handle it. That I say, okay, here's the options. I can talk to mom without you. I can have a chat. Here's some of the things that are gonna come out of my mouth if that's the one that you choose. We can bring in mom together, can call mom, we can all talk together. Or I can trust that you will and I will follow up in 24 hours just to make sure that everything went okay in the conversation. And so that it's I'm sure like the advice when you're when the kids are really little, which pajamas do you want? It's like a it's the teen version of that. That you're like it it's like a non-negotiable, but the language that I use doesn't say that, but it is it's a non-negotiable and it gives them some power and control by choosing how they how that information is revealed to the parent. Yes, and I would say in those kind of scenarios, most of the time kids pick the I'll be here, you talk to my mom. And so they're like, I don't know what to say. Because I think for a lot of issues, kids are like, I don't have the language to to communicate exactly. They're gonna say why, and I'm gonna say, I don't know. And so we talk through a plan of okay, here's here's how I think that the conversation should go. Is there anything you want to make sure that I don't miss? And so they'll say, I don't want them to think I'm crazy. I don't want them to think. And so I'm like, we can control what we can. We're not in charge of like mom's reaction, but we're in charge of communicating.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah. So when I train life coaches on how to be a non-anxious presence in a conversation, I always remind them that we have to have a posture that sh that says, nothing you say can rattle me. We can't look like we can't handle what this person is telling us. So like you have to be a duck on the water, super calm, even though you're pedaling frantically underneath. What do I do? How do I say this? What do I do next? And so I think that I would give that same advice to the teacher, the coach, the best friend's mom, the favorite aunt, whoever this teen is revealing their self-harm to, is that we then have to have this just soft facial expression and non-threatening body posture and openness to hear whatever it is that they have to say without reacting in a way that says you should feel shame.

Stacy Schaffer:

Yeah, I love the duck thing and I'm gonna steal it.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Okay.

Stacy Schaffer:

Feel free. That's no, yeah, exactly. And pun intended, but to be like unflappable. That you're just like, okay, like I I can hold whatever like you put into my hands. And so absolutely, yeah. I think back to my own childhood, and I was, and I'm like, my mom was too fragile to handle so many things, so we just didn't go there, and so I keep that in mind a lot when I'm working with families. Can they handle what I'm about to say? And oftentimes it's yes, because I have so much respect for parents who bring their kids to counseling. Like, we're already like open to an extent, but I think, yeah, that's a beautiful way to look at it. Can they hold it?

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah, I was looking, you have a list of lessons that you've learned, and I feel oh yeah, you say be genuinely approachable. If a child can already anticipate a negative reaction, whether factual or not, they are less likely to disclose much of anything. And so that would be true then once we get to the step of sharing with the parent. Sure. Like that parent needs to be completely approachable and open to whatever is gonna come out of that child's mouth next.

Stacy Schaffer:

Yeah, I like I'm remembering like so many times that kids like that there's another child that a parent will want them to stay away from for probably good reason, like not the greatest influence, and then something happens when they go behind the parents' back and do with this kid, and they are for then doubly afraid to be like this thing happened with this person that you told me to stay away from, and and obviously you what you wanted them to stay away from the kid for because exhibit A, but I think that the kids that are like my parent is going to be pleased that I came to them anyway, those kids like fare better, and it doesn't mean like that there shouldn't be consequences because I'm like consequences are important, boundaries are important, but I think that if they believe that your first reaction is gonna be like, thank you for telling me that had to be really hard because you know that I told you to stay away from Chloe, and Chloe's I didn't know, but if they believe that it'll be like extra hard because of that, they're not gonna talk to you, yeah, they're not.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah. All right, so here we are. You're the parent, you have adopted this parenting value that says, I'm going to be open to all possibilities, everything that comes out of my child's mouth. I'm I'm going to respond with compassion and empathy. So my child always feels accepted and loved unconditionally. What is the next step? What does that parent need to say and do once the teen or child has revealed to them that they are self-harming?

Stacy Schaffer:

I would say that it is always a good idea to have some kind of plan that doesn't have to be super rigid, but to be like, okay, here's what we're going to do moving forward. Right. Like where we are going to tell Stacy, we are going to have some kind of conversation. I am going to do more research because I don't know anything about this. Those kind of things. So you're like, we're going to figure this out together. Everything is figure outable. Oh, you know what? Why?

Dr. Amy Moore:

I have that sign.

Stacy Schaffer:

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Everything is figure outable.

Stacy Schaffer:

I love that saying. And it looks like you do as well. Yeah, I love that because it's like nothing is too big. Yeah. And so I think also owning, like if you don't, if you don't, if it's completely a foreign concept to you, to own that, I think it's so powerful to be like, I don't know what to do, but we're gonna we're gonna figure it out. We're gonna figure it out together. You're not alone in this. Because I think that self-harm can feel really lonely. Yeah. They're doing that in the quieter of their own room, and they're in pain on lots of levels. And so I think it's lonely. And so to say, you're not alone in this anymore. And I think if I wrote about it, I think it's really important that we try to separate like discipline and punishment from self-harm addiction because that's also what's gonna keep kids quiet. Is like my mom said that I would be grounded if I got caught again, and it's they're not misbehaving at you, they're in pain that is manifesting on themselves, so it's different, but I also know that parents a lot of times feel powerless. I don't know what will stop it. If I take away the Xbox, maybe it'll stop, and so it's tricky.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah, so uh two things that you just said in that paragraph. One you called self-harm an addiction, and two, you said we have to separate the idea of imposing consequences from this addiction. And so talk a little bit more about how it's addiction, how does it become an addiction? Why is it considered an addiction?

Stacy Schaffer:

Yeah, I think that the cutting issue and the burning, I think that it has become bigger because of the fact that kids know that other kids are doing it. And so sometimes that that can be really like an addictive quality to be like, oh, I'm in this group. But I've seen over the years kids, they're like, I am loudly, they don't say this, but I am loudly trying to express how much pain that I'm in. And so that like every time it every time I cut, it's another example of just how much agony I'm in, and I need you to see that. And so I think a lot of times when they look down at this, they're like, Yeah, that that is like how I feel. And I think that it somehow we'll have to I'll have to look up the scientific like research on it, but somehow, like every time they do it, like it is expressing some sense of relief of I was able to get it out, and now I can focus on this pain because this hurts, but I know what to do with this pain. This is familiar. I don't know how to say I'm having an existential crisis.

Dr. Amy Moore:

So you're so there you're absolutely substituting the emotional pain for a physical pain.

Stacy Schaffer:

Yes, 100%. Okay, 100%. And then yeah, they're like, that makes sense why I'm in pain because I'm bleeding.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah. So then that must then become part of that dopamine reward pathway satisfaction that we see in all addictive behaviors. And my guess would be it almost has like an OCD-like quality to it, right? Where it's compulsive, like the urge to do it, and it can only be relieved by actually doing it. Yes, yes, I'd say that.

Stacy Schaffer:

There's a new product on the market that actually I'm probably gonna look into getting, but they're so I'm this is not sponsored. I like don't even have one yet, but they're called ouchies, and they're like a fidget. A couple kids have brought them in to show me. They're like a fidget that kind of it gives a little spike of pain, but it's not hurting you, and it was created to help with the self-harm problem because like it's doing some of the same things, except like you're not scarring your body. And first of all, I think it's genius. Second of all, I think it just tells you how widespread of a problem if there is an entire company that is basing their product on a response to people needing help with self-harm. And so I think that there's different levels of the spectrum of self-harm too, right? Like I have some kids that'll just pick at their nails, pick at their nails, pick at their nails, like to your OCD comment. And it somehow that compulsion is like helpful to them until they realize they're bleeding.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah, and so this out, ouchie, is that what you called it? They're called ouchies. So, really, again, that's a substitution. So instead of substituting harm to your body, you're still able to experience a little bit of pain that doesn't harm your body, but could give you that same release by substituting the emotional pain for a physical pain that you're trying to achieve, but without harming your actual body. It is genius.

Stacy Schaffer:

Yes. And something that I've recommended to kids that my clients at self-harm, I always have them carry a pack of lemon heads, the candy, because there's there was some study about if you bite into a lemon head, like it does something similar to your body, is the release of like self-harm. And they're like, What? My assignment is to go get candy. I'm like, go get candy.

Dr. Amy Moore:

That's an extreme sensory experience. Lemon heads are so sour. That is like the far end of the sour spectrum, right? That's an extreme sensory experience, like holding a nice cube or walking barefoot in the snow or any of those things that we encourage people to do to reset their nervous system. And so that's yet another, okay. I'm gonna experience this sensory experience rather than the one that's scarring my body.

Stacy Schaffer:

So I've told kids like if you can find a distraction and come up with lots of options, find a distraction for 15 minutes, that desire will pass. Your brain can't like hold that much intensity for that long. So I need you to like choose some of these scoping skills for 15 minutes, and oftentimes they're been distracted by the distraction, and so it's longer than that. But I think what we need to do is to give kids support in knowing the urgency and people in general, the urgency, it's gonna pass. It will. Like I know that in this moment it feels like this is your forever, but it's not.

Sandy Zamalis:

It is estimated that there are over six million children in the U.S. diagnosed with ADHD. Most children diagnosed with ADHD have a cluster of weak cognitive skills that we all rely on for focusing and staying on task. Skills like working memory, long-term memory, and processing speed. At LearningRx, we create a one-on-one brain training program that's tailored to help address the root cause of your child's biggest challenges. Visit learningrx.com to learn how we're helping kids and teens with ADHD significantly improve their cognitive skills. Get started at LearningRx.com or head over to our show notes for links for more helpful resources, including some free brain training exercises you can try at home.

Dr. Amy Moore:

I am sure that there are many parents when they find out that their child has been self harming. There are many parents that do react in a way that ruptures that relationship and they have to do repair work. And so I think we have to be empathetic to that plight, right? Yeah, you got it wrong. And we get it because that's shocking and scary and sometimes unbelievable. But then we have to come back into play and say, all right, let's figure this out together.

Stacy Schaffer:

Yeah, I think it's definitely scary. I I the family that like all the sharp things are still on lockdown. And the teenager is saying to me, like, I'm not in danger, like anymore, like I don't struggle. And I'm like, but your parents are still scared. And I was like, and for good reason. And so I think that there needs to be more dads. So I said to her, there needs to be more data, like in a longer amount of time than maybe you think is necessary. Sure. You live within your body like that you're as okay as you can be, but your parents like still see that image in their head. And so we have to be sensitive to that, that they're in recovery too. That's just a painful thing to have this baby that you love like purposely hurting themselves. That's so confusing.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah. Yeah. So you said something interesting that the sharp things were in lockdown. What let's back up then, right? So you're revealing your self-harm, and then does the parent then need to enact some sort of safety plan to remove whatever the instrument of self-harm is?

Stacy Schaffer:

I think so, but here's where it gets a little tricky is that as we talked about, it's an addiction, right? If a kid is determined to engage in self-harm, they're gonna find something. And so obviously you don't want to say, yeah, you're gonna find something like good luck, but just to have awareness that just because we're like locking up the scissors and the knives, it doesn't mean that they're not going to scratch themselves with a pin. And so I think, or find something at school, and so I think that it is a tricky dance to parent the kid in front of you as opposed to here's what you do with self-harm. And but I think if it's gotten to the point that the parent is aware, like that's 10 steps ahead of the rest, instead of just discovering that and the kid not wanting you to discover it. The kid's coming to you and says, I need help, I don't know. It's usually it gets revealed accidentally that like parents, what is that? Um, and so I think that yeah, safety measures are great, but also knowing that there needs to be like more conversation around it because if a parent's like you can't self-harm anymore because I took all of the sharps, kids gonna be like actually sure.

Dr. Amy Moore:

If you can always find a way, but it seems like you would want to create a safe environment anyway, yes, yeah.

Stacy Schaffer:

Oh, absolutely to say that, but to because I'm all about the conversation, right? And so I'm like, I think it's conversation of we're gonna remove these things like so that you're not tempted, but I'm also aware, like that, like there are different things that you could find. And I would just ask that you either come to me, you write it down, you save it for Stacey, you do a voice memo, something to you for that urgency, if you're wanting to find something outside of what we're trying to create here as a safe space.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Sure. And then that's where the substitution comes in, right? So if it if you as a parent make it harder to access the self-harm tools, then it gives a little bit of space, right, for your child or teen to say, okay, what can I do now? What can I do instead? Oh, that's right. Stacy said, Hey, I've I needed to make a list of all of these different things, perhaps extreme sensory experiences, walking barefoot in the snow, holding an ice cube, sucking on a sour lemon drop, to do instead, to release that urge.

Stacy Schaffer:

Yeah, and to not like and not pretend that it doesn't exist. Yeah. Because I think I've had a lot of kids try to say in that strategy isn't effective. I tell kids, you can't control the thoughts that come into your head, but you can control what you do with them.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Stacy Schaffer:

And I'd like you to stop shaming yourself for having that desire when you're trying so hard to not. And I think I know I I wrote about this in the book, but the I am sober app I think is a really good one if it is used wisely for a lot of you can use it for any addiction, but I'm a fan of that app.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah, and I think you've mentioned that some teens resist using it because they're afraid that their parents will see that okay, I did self-harm if the parents are also monitoring the app. What are your thoughts on that?

Stacy Schaffer:

Yeah, I so I feel like yeah, that it isn't for everyone. Some kids have not wanted to even download it because they're like, they're like, I don't want my parent to worry. But I think that it's a maybe a smaller population of kids that are like, I need help. My parent knows I need help. My parent also is not going to check my app, that particular app, and have the trust there, and because it is a diary, and so I think it just it depends on the dynamic at home. If it's something where you're like, no, I think I need to monitor what my kid's doing, they're probably not going to be honest in that particular app. But I think for the kids that it does work for, it's really like neat to say, look, I have 17 days of sobriety. And in certain situations, I think it could help, but it's not for everyone. Sure. And do you use that language? Sobriety? Oh, yeah.

unknown:

Okay. Yeah.

Stacy Schaffer:

I'm like, I say a lot of words, Doctor. And what word are you talking about? Yes. Yeah, so like sobriety from that, and the kids use that because as we talked about before, they've got some language. Sure. And yeah, and I think that's something to be really proud of. But also, there are some kids that don't want to use something like that because they like they're like, I'm gonna feel bad if I like stumble and then have to start over. So I like it's not magic, but I think for some kids that are already on a path of I really don't want this to be part of my future story anymore, I think it can be helpful.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Sure. I'm not sure if you know the answer to this, but I'm just gonna bring it up anyway. Is this so do kids who self-harm start with harm OCD that then progresses to actual physical harm? Or are those two separate entities where in harm OCD you just have the urge to cut yourself, stab yourself, jump off a cliff, but you don't want to because it scares you so much. And so then you just sit in this space of having these obsessive, compulsive thoughts, feelings, and try not to have behaviors. And then does that progress for some people into self-harm or are those just separate?

Stacy Schaffer:

I tend to think that they're separate, like there is likely some crossover, but I think they're separate. My experience with kids that's self-harm, there's not a ton of pre-thought into it. Okay, that it's more of a like an impulsive. I saw this once. I wrote about Ginny and Georgia at the burning scene, and while I think that was beautiful and powerful and amazing, it did give me pause because the kids are watching, and that's a lot of times how they learn about self-warm from everything that we see, and so I think that the thought is like, oh, and then they do it, and I don't think that they journal about it or spend time talking to anyone about it. I think it's impulsive. Okay, okay, but there there's likely crossover about that. Yeah.

Dr. Amy Moore:

All right. So besides wearing clothes that are not appropriate for the season, right? To try to cover that up, are there any other warning signs that parents should be aware of?

Stacy Schaffer:

Yeah, I mean, I think that the like a lot of times kids can be like you they're not as sneaky as they think they are, but I think I would pay attention. I have a kid that wears like bracelets all up and down. And I think just that just have awareness of of it the kid in front of you. Because I hesitate to say general warning signs because I know that a lot of we talked in our earlier conversation about the shiny kids that like you wouldn't know that things are going on. And so I think that there are some things that are maybe universal, like the clothing thing or the one-word answer being secretive thing. But I think it really does come down to knowing the the kid you have and to see what is what do I know of this kid that's baseline and what seems like a little off. And I'm a big fan of having all the kinds of conversations before they're an issue. About self-harm? Depending on the kid, I think that you don't you're not gonna give your kid ideas that they didn't have, but to say if you're ever feeling like you're really hurting and you don't know what to do, I don't necessarily like as a parent, like I don't necessarily have the answers, but I never want you to be in a place where you feel trapped and you don't know what to do. And so, like more along the lines of that, of that you're not alone in whatever it is you're struggling with. I'm not gonna leave you alone.

Dr. Amy Moore:

I love that, and I think you make a good point too of saying we need to be supportive, but saying things like, I was a kid once too, or I dealt with something like that when I was a teen is not helpful, right? Because it's a different generation and a different time, and it's a different person, and it takes the focus away from your child when you put it on yourself.

Stacy Schaffer:

Yeah, and I think a lot of that is due that we're just living in a different time than the parents' childhoods of the kids that they're raising, they're different childhoods like the 80s and the 90s, different childhoods. And so when a parent says to a kid, yeah, I had overprotective parents, and so I was a kid, and so I know what that feels like. And the kid will say to me, Okay, they're overprotective, but you're like out running in the neighborhood until like dusk, and you aren't monitored by all people at all times, so that alone is different. There's just so many different variables that it that there is some connection. We were all we all had to do middle school and we all successfully spread middle school, but we all had to do middle school, but we I don't know what that's like to have my friends be able to monitor my every move. Like they track each other, it's insane. I'm like, I don't my friends don't need to know where I am at all times, and I think that would just make me feel a certain way, and so I don't know what it would be like to have that kind of childhood, but I want to hear what your childhood is like.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yes, there's a book called Parent the Child You Have, Not the Child You Were.

Stacy Schaffer:

Oh, I love that.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Yeah, it just reminds me of that. Okay. This has been a great conversation. I knew it would be a great conversation because you're amazing, and so I'm so thankful that you came back and gave us another hour of your time and wisdom. So thank you, Stacy, for being with us. Thank you for having me. Yeah. So, listeners, if you missed part one, we'll put a link to that in the show notes to this episode so that you can hear all of Stacy's wisdom that she has shared with all of us. Stacy, how can our listeners find more from you?

Stacy Schaffer:

So, my my publishers made me a website called authorsstacyschafer.com. And I'm guessing it'll be in the notes because there's lots of ways to misspell my name. Yeah. And there's information about my book, and there's also a contact me form that goes directly to me. And so if you wanted to shoot a message that way, but it the website tells about my book and it gives links to like Amazon, Audible, Spotify. Yeah. And the name of your book is With Love from a Children's Therapist. Hashtag lessons I've learned along the way.

Dr. Amy Moore:

I love it. I love it. Stacy, thanks so much for being with us.

Stacy Schaffer:

Thank you for having me. Yeah.

Dr. Amy Moore:

Listeners, thanks for being with us today, too. If you want more from us, you can find us at theBrainyMoms.com or on social media at the Brainy Moms. If you love us, please leave us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, especially because someone gave us a one star with no comment, bringing our average down to 4.9 instead of 5.0. And so we want to get that back up for sure. So, listeners, I hope you feel a little bit smarter after spending this hour with us. We'll catch you next time.

Head Shot

Dr. Amy Moore

Host