ADHD-Friendly Organization Tips | Dr. Kelly Cagle

Chaos isn’t a character flaw, and “just get organized” isn’t a plan for ADHD kids and adults. On this episode of The Brainy Moms podcast, Dr. Amy and Sandy chat with Dr. Kelly Cagle to talk about what actually makes home life simpler when ADHD and other neurodivergent needs are in the mix. Dr. Kelly is a parenting educator, ADHD researcher, host of the Parenting IQ podcast, and homeschool mom of three so she knows a little about this topic! If you’ve ever stared at a pile of papers, a closet full of clothes you don’t even like, or a kitchen missing every spoon, you’ll hear yourself in this conversation. 

We dig into why simplicity matters for the ADHD brain: fewer options means fewer distractions, less decision fatigue, and fewer spirals that steal your attention before the day even starts. Dr. Kelly shares concrete, realistic systems that reduce daily friction, including a “technology basket” approach for chargers and devices, plus ways to set non-negotiables in shared spaces without turning your home into a drill camp. We also talk sensory processing and why clothing comfort can make or break focus, sleep, and emotional regulation, along with how curiosity can replace power struggles when a child insists on the same outfit again and again. 

If you’re parenting in a mixed neurotype home, we cover how to support without shaming, including better language than “pay attention” and how to offer practical strategies in the moment. You’ll also hear how to chunk tasks for overwhelmed teens, how to balance messy creative zones with calmer community spaces, and why movement and sleep can be the quiet backbone of better executive function. 

Subscribe to The Brainy Moms, share this with a parent who needs a calmer reset, tell someone looking for a podcast for Christian moms, and leave a comment on the one system you’re going to try this week.

ABOUT US:
The Brainy Moms is a parenting podcast hosted by cognitive psychologist Dr. Amy Moore and Sandy Zamalis. Dr. Amy and Sandy have conversations with experts in parenting, child development, education, homeschooling, psychology, mental health, and neuroscience. Listeners leave with tips and advice for helping parents and kids thrive. If you love us, add us to your playlist and follow us on social media! 

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Preview

Dr. Amy Moore 0:00

Hi, Smart Moms and Dads. We are so glad that you've joined us for this episode of the Brainy Moms Podcast, brought to you today by Learning Rx Brain Training Centers. I'm your host, Dr. Amy Moore, here with my co-host Sandy Zamalis. And before we introduce you to our guest today, I want to remind you that we have a free monthly newsletter. You can go to the Brainymoms.com and sign up for that. It's filled with information related to parenting and homeschooling, things that we talk about on the show, and more. So don't miss out. And now our conversation today is with Dr. Kelly Cagle. Let me tell you a little bit about her in case you don't know her yet. Dr. Kelly is a parenting educator, ADHD researcher, host of the Parenting IQ podcast, and a homeschooling mom of three boys. She empowers parents, educators, and business leaders with evidence-based strategies that strengthen connection, restore calm, and help individuals thrive. She's with us today to talk about a few ways that we can make our lives with ADHD simpler, more organized, and less stressful. Welcome, Dr. Kelly. Thank you, ladies. I'm so excited to talk to you today. I know. We're excited to talk to you too.

Sandy Zamalis 1:13

Did you hear the music?

Dr. Amy Moore 1:15

No. Why does it do that?

Sandy Zamalis 1:17

She uh her phone keeps like turning the music on when she puts her Bluetooth headphones in. It's driving her insane.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:25

Right. So full disclosure, I cannot wear headphones because I have a really narrow head. And so I look really ridiculous. Like I will show you how ridiculous I look. I look really ridiculous with we actually have this blooper reel of us recording in person last summer and me trying to figure out headphones and flipping that one ear out so you can hear. I mean, it was ridiculous. Right. And so I wear in ears now, but if I touch them because they start slipping, um, sometimes it flips over to my workout playlist. Right. So I'll have like evanescence screaming in my ear like while I'm trying to do that. Like, what's happening? Bring me to wake me up. That is exactly what I just heard. Yes, exactly what I just heard. And here's the thing like I'm one of those people that like I get in the car and I have my worship playlist on and I sing at the top of my lungs to my worship playlist. But if I'm at the gym, like I have to have fast, loud, keep me on the treadmill music.

Dr. Kelly Cagle 2:41

Well, that's so funny.

Dr. Amy Moore 2:42

I love it.

Dr. Kelly Cagle 2:42

No, I get it. I get it. I don't why would you work out to, you know, worship music? I mean, I guess Holy Spirit's everywhere. I get it, but he comes with us.

Dr. Amy Moore 2:54

Well, right. I'm like, and I like Jesus wants us to experience joy and like there's nowhere in the Bible that says you have to walk to slow music. There is nowhere. If you show it to me, then I will change my practice.

Dr. Kelly Cagle 3:12

No, I think I think you just you do you, and we're we're all we're all getting to heaven as long as we're saved, right? As long as we accept Jesus as our savior. Absolutely. Amen. Because I'm gonna be like, would you would you listen to when you worked out?

Dr. Amy Moore 3:26

Right? And I like I am not legalistic at all, like at all. And so I like I think, girl, I protect my heart. You need to stop worrying about me. Like getting on the treadmill. And I'm not listening to like rap music that, right? But it's just a little bit more now.

Dr. Kelly Cagle 3:50

We need now we need to hear this full playlist because are we really good?

Sandy Zamalis 3:54

Shaboozy's on there. That's what I'm voting for. Is Shabuzi on your playlist?

Dr. Amy Moore 3:57

I don't even know. I don't even know who Shaboozy is. I don't think there's no there's there's two of us.

Sandy Zamalis 4:03

I don't Okay.

Dr. Amy Moore 4:04

I'm gonna be.

Sandy Zamalis 4:05

I think you would if you would if you heard it, I think.

Dr. Amy Moore 4:08

Okay, I'm gonna tell you who's on my on my workout playlist. Oh my gosh, she's really bringing it. Okay, so I have Dawtree, who's a Christian. Okay, um, Evanescence, uh, Keith Urban, Maroon 5, Nickelback. I do have some country, so some Rascal Flat, Scotty McCreary.

Sandy Zamalis 4:29

Oh, and you definitely need some shibboozie.

Dr. Amy Moore 4:32

So I have Snow Patrol, I have Alphaville from the 80s. Um This is great. I think it's a great list. A good mixture. Yeah. And I do have like, you know, Brandon Lake and and Jesus. I do have I have a I think there's a little bit of Jesus in all musical joy. There we go. Oh man, too funny. Um yeah. Um, and we've been recording the whole time too, because what we found, we're in season six. Um, and what we found in the earlier seasons is, you know, we would go, okay, we're gonna press record now. And we had missed all this really awesome conversation for the 10 minutes prior to pressing record. We don't always use it, but it's there too. It's good to have. Yeah, absolutely. See, we could have this music conversation, right? So that moms feel a little bit more freedom in what they listen to while they exercise. Right. That's right. I'm all for it. Moms, we give you freedom.

Dr. Kelly’s ADHD Backstory

Sandy Zamalis 5:45

We're so glad to have you here. Uh, we are excited about this particular topic because organization and ADHD go hand in hand. Figuring that piece of the puzzle out is really, really tricky. But before we get started on that, um, why don't you take a moment and introduce yourself to our listeners? Um, tell us a little bit more about yourself and and your lovely homeschool family.

Dr. Kelly Cagle 6:09

Yeah, so I am originally from Brazil. This is a part of the puzzle that I think is important to share because culturally, we already are a lot more expressive and passionate people. And so that goes hand in hand with the whole overlooking for such a long time for myself of the possibility of an ADHD diagnosis. And it also goes along with the dot of I am an English language learner. When I moved here in a long time ago, 1998, I spoke no English. And any academic struggle that I ever faced in school, whether it was, you know, as a sixth grade student or as a doctoral student, it was always, oh, but I am a language learner. And so I always blamed a lot of my rereading of this page again. And oh, wait, I was just thinking about the little bird that I saw outside the window instead of focusing on what I just listened to or what I just read on, oh, it's because it's in the foreign language. And so that to me is a huge puzzle piece of that that makes me super unique. And Dr. Amy, you're laughing because I'm so sorry. I just blamed it all on I'm an ELL, I'm an English language learner. So it was such an aha moment of, oh, Kelly, there's there's a lot more to that than just you being from a different country. Now, with my kids, we decided to homeschool. This is our third year. I'm I'm even trying to do the math right now, third or fourth. It's all jumbled in together now. But we love it because I do also have very neurodivergent children. I've got ADHD, I've got dyslexia represented in my home. So it gives us, I say us, my husband and I, a chance to kind of personalize their learning journey specific to their strengths, but also their weaknesses.

Dr. Amy Moore 8:23

Oh, I love that. So I'm apologizing to you. The reason I was laughing was not you. It's that my cat jumped up on the table in front of me. She's a Siberian with three layers of fur, and her tail was brushing against my lipstick, which then the fur sticks in my lipstick. And so I was like, this is so anyway. I apologize.

Dr. Kelly Cagle 8:48

No, it's it's great. I thought you were laughing because that we're always looking for different things to blame, you know, absolutely when it comes to diagnosis. It's always like, oh, it could be this, but it also could be this, or it could be the cat that's over here brushing against my lip, right?

Dr. Amy Moore 9:02

It's like the squirrel that just, you know, walked across my desk. So yeah, absolutely. Um, so I too have ADHD and understand that desire to uh find a reason for all of the neurodivergent traits and behaviors, right? Is that my ADHD? Or could we blame that on something else? And, you know, we know that there's a lot of um, you know, comorbid, co-occurring disorders along with ADHD. And so do you think it's important to tease apart those different things? Like, should we tease apart sensory processing or ADHD? Should we tease apart, you know, mesophonia or rejection sensitive dysphoria and ADHD? Or or do you tell parents just throw it in the ADHD bucket and run with it?

Dr. Kelly Cagle 9:51

Well, I think a lot of it, it it depends on the child, because if the struggles or the or the individual, whatever, if you're talking about a parenting situation, the a struggle that a parent's seeking help for, or the self. And so to me, it's such a personalized journey. And that's why the the homeschooling, like what I brought up, the homeschooling, I am also parenting boys. So then we have the gender difference that always comes into play with gender differences, with uh how he shows ADHD and his symptoms and his struggles, because they are already naturally a lot more physically active than girls. Girls want in an academic setting, they want to sit and they want to please. And it could be that I'm giving you my full eye contact, but my brain is extremely in la la land, completely disconnected, but I'm never gonna show you that. Where a boy will will show that and just be fidgety and you know, and that's in a blanket statement just when you take into consideration the gender differences. So it's really, really, really hard to over-generalize anything into one big pot, into a big bucket. You can't do that because when you talk about sensory, I have um a son who when a when he was a baby, he really struggled. So I always made all of the baby food and all of the stuff. And my other two were incredible eaters. I would, I would breastfed, I breastfed all my babies, and then I would make their food, and the other two are like whatever you make, I'm gonna eat. But then the third time around, I would have a kid who I would mash up the banana and I'm like, here you go. And he's like, like gagging as a baby. And and I would spend all this time creating his food, and then he wouldn't eat any of it, and it would all go to waste. And I would tell my husband, and I'm targeting the sensory situation here, is hey, I did the same exact thing, nothing was different about my parenting, my recipes haven't changed, my nursing style hasn't changed, but he's different. And so even though the home life might be alike to all of the the children in your parenting styles, you are still dealing with a whole, whether it's ADHD, multi-sensory processing disorder, or dislikes anything that you want to throw in the mix. So you can't throw it all into a bucket. You can start with a big bucket, but then you gotta take a cone and filter down to, well, okay, this is this is Dr. Amy, this is Sandy. Well, let's look about what about Kelly, what is she struggling with? How can I specifically help her?

Sandy Zamalis 12:43

I think one of the things I'm listening to both of you and trying to on our theme today of like how do we make life more simple, more organized. You know, whenever I hear of families that have, you know, lots of different neurodivergence that they're dealing with at home and their own uh neurodivergence issues as well, uh, a lot of times I think a parent feels like they're just playing a game of whack-a-mole, right? Where they're just kind of hitting things and nothing's ever in that organized or simplistic space. So why don't we talk about why is simplicity specifically important uh for ADHD and specif uh specifically for families? I mean, it's probably important for everything, but um let's put it under that ADHD umbrella. Why is simplicity an important thing that we need to think about as parents?

Closet Decluttering For Better Focus

Dr. Kelly Cagle 13:41

Because of creativity, as what one of the traits is creativity. And again, going back to even the natural, I was actually just writing about this in my book right now, about the natural childhood development of of kids. It's really creative, it's really experimental. It's really if if I have this food and I drop it, what happens? Oh, cause and effect. I drop so it's it's there's a lot of curiosity and creativity. When we think about simplicity, is we are um creating room for that creativity to flourish instead of it being distracted constantly, that is already something that we're dealing with, like, oh, a cat's coming, oh now there's a squirrel, no, there's something else. If I remove the the distractions that will come as much as possible, here's an example your closet. I think this is an amazing place to start. When we look at options, I want to be creative. How I dress myself is a huge representation of me, of my personality, of my style, of who I am when I walk into a room. People are making assumptions based on my clothes right? But if I have clothes in my closet that I don't feel good when I wear them, then it's adding this layer of choice that's like, hey, here's another just collecting dust. No, I don't want this, or I don't fit into this any longer. Oh, remember, this is pre-baby. And you go down this rabbit hole of feeling bad about myself because I gained all this weight, the pregnancy weight, I haven't been able to lose. Oh, yeah, I need to work out. You see, and then you get sucked into the cycle of, oh, wait, I'm going to this incredible event with amazing friends that I want to, you know, find an outfit that is creative enough that expresses how I feel right now. We were talking about music earlier that sets the vibe of even what you listen to whenever you're getting to the place or walking into a home. So I think that when you remove those distractions, it creates a lot more room for creativity for you to have only the things that you know you feel good in. And I'm specifically talking to the closet. Um, they specifically feel good in that the color in that, for example, in the summer when I'm more tan, I am okay wearing whites and creams. Well, in the winter, not as much because my skin's a little more pale and I look more like I didn't get good sleep the night before because of my dark circles under my eyes really pop. So there's so many layers to the organization, even to your closet of what you keep for each season. So I'll not buy, you know, if I'm gonna buy sweaters in the winter to wear, they're gonna be darker colors because I know I feel better and um in darker colors in that season with my skin. So then I'll just remove the other things that are distracting my attention in my closet.

Sensory Needs And Clothing Choices

Dr. Amy Moore 17:10

I like that. Um I I like that you apply that to the way that we should be able to choose something that we feel good about wearing that makes us feel good, and then move on to the activity in which we are wearing that outfit and not be thinking, Do I look fat? Do I look pale? Does this bring out the dark circles under my eyes? Right. Like we've already pre-chosen a collection that we know we like, that we know we feel good about, and then we can fully be present for the activity that we're wearing it for. So let's talk a little bit about the sensory issues that can come into play there too, and how we can help our children. Um I have extreme sensory issues when it comes to textures and fabrics. And so the other night I was hot in bed and I had a long-sleeve pajama top on. And so I got up, I put a t-shirt on, got back in bed, and realized this t-shirt is getting old, so it's a little bit nubby. I am not going to be able to sleep because I can feel those nubby, you know, pills on my back, right? I have to get up, I have to change my shirt again. Well, that shirt should not have gone back into my drawer. It should have gone in the giveaway pile or the trash, right? For the exact reason that you're talking about. I was so distracted by the texture of this shirt that it shouldn't be part of my wardrobe anymore. So, how do we how do we help our kids understand how their sensory issues are impacting their emotions, their ability to focus? What's your recommendation on that?

Dr. Kelly Cagle 18:58

Well, I think you leaned in with curiosity because whenever you so I remember this when I was a first-time mom, my my I was I only had one kid for five years before my next one was born. So I cared a lot about how he looked. He was always cute. I always had people messaging me, where do you shop for him? and all this other stuff. Without, like, he really didn't have a choice. This is this is my kid. And again, going back to the representation of me, he's an extension of me. So, you know, a lot of things that you learn after you have more kids and a lot of different battles that you're learning to fight. But I remember that he would wear anything that I gave him to wear. Then as he started getting older, because he always he also likes to please, he wants to make everybody happy and he liked the attention that he got whenever he got feedback about how cute he looked. Everybody always said, and this is he's like three, four, five years old. But we we like feeling like, oh, we belong. They they care about how I look. They this is this is good. But then as he started getting older and I started leaning in with more curiosity, I also had other kids, and so I had more on my plate that then I cared less about these other areas that no longer mattered as much. Then I started leaning in with curiosity when he would always choose the dry fit, you know, the Nike dry fit stuff. And all of the other cute things started just collecting dust in his closet. So I started being curious. Hey, like tell me about this. Why is it that you now want this button-up shirt that you but why do you want to wear this shirt again to church that, you know, yada yada yada? And so he started telling me, oh, you know what? This tag really itches me and I don't like how this suffocates my neck. And like if I'm wearing this beanie, it's squeezing and like I can't pay attention. And so he started verbalizing. And and it's also the awareness, right? So it's not just a me issue. It was more he, his communication skills started developing, but it was only after I started asking questions. Because as I did that, it avoided the tantrum of him, no, I don't want to wear this. And that's where a lot of parents get caught in this wrestling match of, oh my gosh, I just had a parent come to me a couple weeks ago saying, What is your recommendation? My kids always choosing the same exact outfit, and I'm so sick of that outfit. Well, if you lean in with curiosity, you're gonna think, oh, maybe it's because she really is in this Elsa season and this is the Elsa shirt, and she really wants to wear Elsa everywhere she goes because it makes her happy, or it could be a sensory situation of an itchy tag, or, you know, uh again, a lot of different veins that we could take this to, but at the root of it is curiosity. From the parent's perspective, from the parents' approach. If I lean in and I say, all right, well, tell me why you keep choosing the shirt, then it could be an answer that you had no idea. You made an assumption, and sometimes it could be right, but it could be way off that then you are granted permission to say, okay, how about you come with me and we go, you know, to Target or to Dillard's or whatever, and you get to choose five shirts that in addition to this one. And and that's what I started doing with my son. I just started saying, okay, you know what? Now I I want I want your input in what you wear. Come come alongside me. Let's figure this out. And then I started partnering with him with, you know, color matching and styles and all of that additional layer.

Sandy Zamalis 22:52

So um let me uh ask a clarifying question because I'm probably the odd woman out here in that I don't like to shop. I don't like, I will wear the same clothes for centuries. And so this simplicity topic is interesting to me because with that same piece, I struggle. Um, and this it bleeds over into everything. So it bled over into homeschool curriculums, it bled over into like, you know, just collecting stuff and not understand not so much understanding, but not having the bandwidth, I think, to really take the time to simplify. Because uh, there's something about my brain in particular that really liked having the options, because maybe I don't like it today, but I might like it next week or next year. Um, and so what I'm what I I think I want some clarification for you from you, Dr. Kelly is are you saying that simplicity, um, again, to go back to what you said before, to allow that creativity? If we can simplify things in our life in our life, like the closet or you know, our bedroom or something where we have a lot of stuff, um, does that simplicity offer sort of like a blank slate kind of for our brain, right? So that we can fill it in with other things. Um, so it's it's something we should train our brain to do, to find places where we can take away the visual noise or in this case the closet, you know, purge some of that so that you can have more of that creative vision.

Build Simple Home Systems That Stick

Dr. Kelly Cagle 24:36

Yeah, I think that's an amazing follow-up question, Sandy. So I also don't like to shop. Okay. Like I it it's I have to really be in the mood for me to say, okay, here we go. And then I spend way too much money because I'm gonna do it one time because I don't want to go back and deal with those people and all of the things. So I think that the the at the heart of it, and you can go back and and look at the really strict minimalist people, and they're like, I have two forks, I have one plate, I have one chair. And that is such an extreme lifestyle, far from what we live here in our house. But I've I've told my husband that if you were to come over and look around, my friends always come over and they're like, oh my gosh, your house is always so clean. Uh, no, it's not. My house is not always so clean. My house is typically organized. And why is that? Because we have less things to move from here to here and then from here to here. So, Dr. Amy, you talked about your shirt. So, you know where that that shirt would have gone? To the donation pile, like you said, just yesterday. I had all of my boys try, because we have very different body shapes and styles in my house, even though all our boys, they are very some are real, real tiny, and the other ones like curvy and has this. And so um the hand-me-downs don't always work. So I was like, you know what, try all of these on. And then these three didn't work, swim shorts. We already put them in the garage for us to donate. So the removal of the option, Sandy, is the the like at the heart of what we do with the distraction, because of the the root of the distraction is where you get uh caught into the cycle of of collecting. But what if? Like, what if, you know what? If the time comes and I need to buy my other son a $10 pair of swim truck trunks, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm I'm gonna go do it. But instead of me moving it from here to here to then collect dust, so then maybe in five years the other one won't even care or it won't fit or it'll be too old. It'll have collected, you know, like yellow stains on the tennis shoes because I try to save these $40 pair of shoes to the other kid. That is organized chaos and it's unnecessary. I come from a household that my mom saves a lot and it's all organized. If you need something, you just call my mom. She's gonna have it. Somewhere, in some way, she's gonna have it. But I think that that has created in me this idea of, man, if I need it, I'm just gonna go buy it because I likely won't need it. And so instead of me feeling like I need to constantly organize these things that I may or may not need, then it just creates more um like more to-dos in my head. And I already have a lot of to-dos and a lot of noise. And so that creativity is then suffocated from oh, gotta do this, I have to do this, I gotta, you know, gotta make sure I use this book because I paid a lot of money for this curriculum, instead of my kid could care less about this learning this one way that this textbook teaches. Does that kind of help?

Sandy Zamalis 28:04

Yeah, no, that was super helpful. Um, I think what I'm hearing you say is what we need to do maybe is have some sort of system, right? That helps us in this process. Because I know for me, like I would just be an overwhelm all the time. Like I have to clean out my closet. It's like a once-a-season thing. Um, but like what you and Amy were kind of alluding to is like, well, maybe if I had a system where when I don't like the shirt, it immediately goes to a place that it then something happens to it. Um, or if I, you know, if there's a place to put your keys, right? If there's a place to put your bag, um it just eliminates some of that chaos that can creep into your home. Because I in my house, my husband's a if there's a flat surface, it's something's going on that flat surface. Like phone, phone wallet keys. I'm constantly clearing flat surfaces no matter how much I try. And I know from a mom perspective, I I understand what you're saying about that simplicity, but it's so hard because you have everybody and all of their things, and you're just trying to get everyone to get into some sort of system and routine so that you're not gonna be able to do that. So can I add clean up?

Dr. Kelly Cagle 29:31

Can I add a system to that? Because I just did this three weeks ago, okay? Um, we have there's five of us, and we all have phone, whatever, not all of us have phones. I'm just saying we have phone, iPad, chargers for all of the things. And I was constantly, like you just said, Sandy, picking up charger from here, putting it here and over here, and then this flat surface in my kitchen where kind of everything seems to gravitate was always a disaster. So I found a basket, which I already had in because I knew this basket, there's a purpose for this basket. I don't get rid of everything. This basket was cute. I didn't have a purpose for it right then, but I knew something would come up. So I kept this one basket. I brought it out and I said, okay, this is our technology basket. When you get home, my teenager has a phone. This is where your phone goes. When you're charging anything, this is where we're charging. We're not putting in any outlet to charge any kind of iPad, any kind of headphones, anything. Chargers go here, iPads go here, headphones go here. And that was a system that I created that we are gravitating towards all of us, because you have you're having to break this habit of getting home and just plop wherever. We're having to create a new habit. This is a system that we're going to abide by. I will also add that unless you are really serious about that system and you're going to be consistent about applying that system, don't create all of these reward charts and all of these ideas and chore charts and all these things if you as the leader of the home will not implement. And that's gonna that could really open up a whole different rabbit hole. But that would I just wanted to give you an application of a system that can be really simple, but can help you, Sandy, as the mom, as the organizer of this cleaner upper behind everyone else, because we have a lot that we're already navigating as moms.

Sponsor Break And Resources

Helping Without Shame In Mixed Brains

Sandy Zamalis 31:33

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Dr. Amy Moore 33:23

So let's talk a little bit about what that looks like when you've got one spouse with ADHD, and uh the other spouse without ADHD, and kids with ADHD, which is what you know our house was. Our kids are all adults now, but two of them are ADHD. And what I wish everyone knew about the ADHD brain is when you say you just need to get organized, if we could stay organized, we probably would. And so I always say one of the greatest gifts you can give someone with ADHD is the question, can I help you get organized? Right. Because obviously, if I could naturally do it, I would. Um, but I'll give you an example of just this week. Um, so I had no less than six baskets full of papers, no less than six huge baskets full of papers that had been stacking up and stacking up and stacking up in my office to the point where I stopped working in my office because every flat surface in my office had stacks of something with baskets all over the place. And so I had been working in my living room with my laptop because I couldn't be in the office full of baskets and baskets of baskets of papers. So I asked my husband, hey, I need to redo my podcast studio and like, can you please help me? So he spends the next three days making me feel like a four-year-old because of my inability to stay organized in my own office, by the way. Like this is my space, it's not encroaching on anyone else's. Um but at one point I thought, um, my mom doesn't make me feel like this. She offers to help. She comes in, she's gentle about it. Anyway, so talk a little bit about um what advice you can give to the non-ADHD parent to help the rest of the family. Like, should that task of being the organizer be assigned to the person who has that capability?

Dr. Kelly Cagle 35:40

I really love this question because that's exactly where we fit as well. So I am the one with ADHD, my husband is not. And we are parenting. Our oldest has ADHD. And he would often tell him, Hey, Levi, Levi's his name, he's 14 now. He says, Hey, Levi, pay attention. Pay attention. When you get older, you should get tattooed on your forehead. Pay attention, pay attention. And then I said, you know, I we were away, and you have to choose your your times of when to challenge each other and make each other better. Because just because I have the doctorate degree doesn't mean that I'm any wiser or any should have any more say than he does in our parenting, and that's something that we've already set clear boundaries on. I told him, I said, hey, babe, you know, um, instead of you just telling Levi to pay attention, here's something that would actually help me. Because I, me paying attention is not, was not what would have prevented me from spilling my water cup every single time we sat down to eat as a family when I was little. And I always felt super bad. My parents never shamed me, never got mad at me for any of it, but I always was frustrated with myself that I was so deadgum clumsy that I made the mess. It was always me. I'm the one that started the mess. But something that would be helpful in that way would be: hey, here's something that you should consider doing. Instead of leaving your cup within the ways of your hands, because you talk a lot with your hands, let's move your cup over here. That is completely different from telling me to pay attention as an eight-year-old little girl whose arms are flailing every time I'm telling a story. So, same thing that I told my husband. I said, Hey, if depending on whatever you're telling him to pay attention with in whatever situation, try to think of an actual practical strategy that could help him in that instance. So, for example, you know how I just, Sandy, I just gave the example of the basket that we just set. My oldest had just lost his headphones and he's looking everywhere, and we had just got them for Christmas. All this, you know, of course, Bo's headphones. Could not find them while Levi is all over the house trying to find these headphones, looking for these headphones, and I had already created a system of where the headphones should go and all of this. So the the system hadn't been implemented fully. So his dialogue with me when I'm helping him look for these headphones in his room is I'm quoting him. He said, Mom, I just suck. I suck. And in that moment, because I'm with him, I'm like, I didn't say anything because I know how that feels. Because that's how I felt as that little girl. I'm so clumsy. I always spill, I'm so clumsy. And it started becoming identity pieces. So what he's telling himself, I suck, I suck, I suck, I suck. So my husband then said, Hey, buddy, when you take these off, where do they go? Instead of pay attention, where do they go? And, you know, shaming him and all these things. So that would be a strategy, Dr. Amy, that we can apply as parents, whether you have ADHD or you are the neurotypical parent, is what is a strategy that would be helpful right now? And again, lean in with curiosity and say, hey, I may not know what helps you. So can you like guide me through this? What would help? You know, and and and that's that's super important, whether you are the organizer or you are the declutter or you are the pack rat or you are the the, you know, it doesn't matter what role you play in your house, as long as it becomes a team effort and not a shaming and not a, oh my gosh, your office is a disaster. How can why can you not keep it organized? How can you not file your papers away? That's not your gift. But you know what? It's mine. So hey, can I help you with your office?

Sandy Zamalis 39:59

My husband would die if he said, Can I help you with your office? Um, although he probably would welcome it because it's pretty bad right now. Um I think we had talked about this a couple years ago, and Dr. Amy, uh, we had talked about the importance of, you know, because I'm thinking of like a teenager in his room, right? And like telling your teenager to go clean their room. Um, and maybe they are visually overwhelmed and they don't know where to start or or, you know, even where to, you know, they don't have a system of their own that they like. So, you know, you're having to work with them on that. Um but there is something of value, I think, to highlight again in this conversation that like it's okay to have spaces that are messy. Um, but when you're living in a community with your family, then the community spaces should probably be more decluttered and free because then they're more welcoming to everyone. Um, so that creativity, like I know when I'm in my most creative zone, that's usually when I'm my messiest too. Because and I'm sure Dr. Amy was working on a project with all those papers that were in her office. So she was full in a zone as well. Um, so let's talk about how do we help families balance that? Because I I'm with you, Dr. Kelly. I don't think that a regimented routine is necessarily the answer. We have to give ourselves grace to figure out what season or what's happening in the moment. Um, but we also sh deserve to have community spaces that are clutter-free just for our heart, just for that head space.

Dr. Kelly Cagle 41:46

So to your point, right now I am looking out in my office and there are sticky notes all over because and then colorful sticky notes, because one color is for research, one color is for application, one color is for story. I mean, like I'm working on a book. And so it is there, it's sticky note nation along with my board, along with my calendar. I have tons of work everywhere. But to my mind, this is organized chaos because this is my current project. And nobody comes, not even my house cleaner, is gonna come and touch any of it. She barely dusts my desk because she's like, oh my gosh, I can't move anything. She won't be able to find anything. So to me, in this season, this is what organized is. Because this is my brain dump of if I keep it here, it will get lost. It will get overlooked. If it's important enough, it's getting written on a sticky note and it's going here. But this is my space. My door is shut right now. You know, uh, like you said, Sandy, Dr. Amy's probably working on a project and has all of these papers that she's, you know, rummaging through. The the reality with the the family space is that it's everybody. So if everybody had their craziness in that that moment, then where are you going to not be visually overstimulated in your own household so you can all rest? So dishes piled up in the sink. Uh, for my husband, when he gets home and he's already been working and running all of the leading these men, if he gets home, he's not gonna say anything, complain about the dishes being in the sink. But I also know that he really likes a sink that's clean. And so I've told the boys, hey boys, before we leave, we have to make because we always go to soccer training. So before we leave, let's leave the kitchen clean. That's something that helps dad feel more rested, more in this welcoming environment in his home. For me, the stairs, for some reason. There are signs all over the stairs that say, whatever you want, drop it here, and it's fine. Well, it's not fine because every time I walk by the stairs, I'm like, oh my gosh, my entire house is a disaster. It's not. It's not. But that's what it feels like. Jackets and shoes and gloves. I mean, you name it, it's there. So I've told them, hey, here's how I feel because I've clearly communicated how I feel when I walk by the stairs and I see everything being a disaster. So they're like, oh, I don't want my mom to feel that way. But now because I know I'm going to do a better job. And you guys, I told them about I told the boys a little over a month ago of how I felt when the stairs were cluttered. And they have done such a better job. Is it perfect? No, it's not perfect. They still sometimes get home, take their shoes off, and because dad doesn't like them walking on carpet with shoes. And so there are different times that you walk by, shoes are there, but it is no longer full of overwhelming things because now they are aware of how that makes me feel. And so in your home, it's such a collaborative environment. It can be a collaborative environment of guys, I'm tired right now. I'm not going to do the dishes. I will wake up in the morning and I'll do them. And everybody's like, all right, mom, yeah, just sit down and just chill. Or dad says, hey guys, the yard really needs to get mowed. Is there any way that you can pitch in? If we would just be open enough to voice how we're feeling, what we're needing, the help, the season of overwhelm, then nobody's gonna be like, oh, sucks to be you. Like, oh no, manage that yourself. I'm not here to help you. I don't want you to feel restful whenever you walk in the door. So it again, seeing your family as your team, you're all on the same team. You're all running the same, the same um race parallel to one another. You know, not everyone has the same race. I'm just saying, like, you're together, you're trying to make each other better and achieve goals and get to great, achieve great things in life so we can all pitch in and help each other out.

Dr. Amy Moore 46:13

I love how that helps build empathy. I love how it's something that appears to be iterative and dynamic and um always based on who needs what in the moment or in the season, rather than this is how we do things in this house. And so stop complaining or you're gonna be grounded. Right. Instead, it's the idea that, hey, these are the things that we need so that we have this shared space and that we have this decluttered environment. You have some space over here where maybe you have more freedom. But I mean, it it seems like a way that while it might take a little bit of effort in the communication side, think of the amount of effort you actually do not then spending spend in the conflict side.

Dr. Kelly Cagle 47:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, that's that's a great point. Because you are already, whenever you think of conflict, you are frustrated at either the person or something that the person has done. So you are more prone to be reactive at and attack that person. Oh my gosh, you are such a tornado. You leave everything everywhere, and you're attacking that person instead of being frustrated that they're you can't believe in the room is at the state that it's in. So say, hey, you know what? Let's clean up can you just can you make your bed? And Sandy, you brought up earlier about asking a teenager, teenager to go clean your room. Well, that can, especially if they have ADHD, they see everything and they're like, uh, where do I start? I have no idea. And then those start piddling, and you'll go back 10 minutes later and they've done nothing, and you're like, what in the world have you been doing? Oh, I've been fixing my shoelace on my shoe. To them, that is important. The shoelace needs to get done. But to the extent of the disaster of the tornado, there is so much left to do. And so to that point, it's I like to chunk things up and say, Hey, can you work on your shoes right now? They're like, Okay, great. Uh my shoes, tunnel vision, I'm gonna focus on my shoes. Okay, now let's clean up your clothes, whether you're alongside them or not. Then uh you kind of create this instead of um blaming and saying, go clean your room, you're such a mess, and adding these layers of self-doubt and like self-hate and self-denial or confusion, then you can say, Man, um right now we have Jurassic World and our two little boys, they share a room. It's Jurassic World up in that place. I walked in this morning to wake them up and I'm like, wow, it is Jurassic World. So in my mind, I can either say, Boys, y'all need to clean this up, or I can go and grab this, I don't even know, 10-foot dinosaur. It's bigger than me, and get the head and go wake the my sweet little boy up with the little dinosaur. Hey, good morning. Ooh, it is another beautiful day. We have choices. And and you know what? It's so Jurassic World up there, but they are having so much fun. And I'm gonna lean in with curiosity and creativity and let them.

Dr. Amy Moore 49:32

But I think there have to be some things that are non-negotiable about this, right? For example, your spoon drawer should never be empty. I don't know if anyone else can relate, but I can open a silverware drawer and see forks and knives and zero spoons. Why? They're not in the dishwasher, they're not in the sink, they're not in the silverware drawer. If I walk around the house, there are 18 spoons divided evenly between three bedrooms. Or there are no glasses in the cabinet because there are 26 glasses divided among three bedrooms in the right. Um, I have three boys. So I'm a boy mom too. I get it. So I think that that was one of our biggest struggles was um like saying if you take a spoon out of the kitchen, it needs to come back to the kitchen as soon as you're done, not six weeks later.

Speaker 1 50:35

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kelly Cagle 50:37

Yeah, and I think that's where the systems come in, right? If you are going to do this, then and even okay, so Dr. Amy, I'll say this because ours is always with the cups. We we too have cups all everywhere. And so our thing is there are times we try to create the system of whenever you come wake up in the morning, bring down your cups. That you can see how that that's going in our household not so successfully. But there are times, like you say, the non-negotiable is all right, boys, I'm about to start the dishwasher, run upstairs, get all the cups, bring them down. You know what they do? They run upstairs, bring all the cups down. And sometimes it's two cups, like this morning, there were two cups. And other times we're coming with towers of like eight glasses. I'm like, oh my gosh. But okay, you know, we're gonna do it. So that's just a system that you have to have the non-negotiables a hundred percent. But if unless you're willing to be extremely consistent with the follow three of every single time you leave, you have to come back. That's kind of in my experience, me personally, and our the cagle household, that is impossible for us to abide. So so I just say, okay, guys, right now we need to do this. Let's go. Boom. And then the boys know, oh, this is a non-negotiable. This is what we have to do before we leave the house. The clothes will have to be put up. Let's get rolling.

Fewer Options Create Better Habits

Dr. Amy Moore 52:00

So I actually love that. And I love that that does not come from a place of having the mindset as a parent that, well, you should just know to do this, or you should just remember to do this, or that's the rule. So you just need to remember to do this. The reality is when you have ADHD, you are not necessarily going to remember to do that. And so I think that that's a great reminder that we're going to have to say once in a while, or every time, okay, I need all the glasses, go right now. And so that can be said with almost a game-like tone and not, oh my gosh, how many times do I have to tell you, bring the glasses back? Because then that just makes everybody frustrated and resentful. And when really it's okay, who can get back here the fastest with their stack of 26 glasses? I do have to say that, you know, I was pretty lax about those things because I too struggled to bring, I drink out of glass water bottles. And so there would be times that, you know, I'd have six or seven glass water bottles from my nightstand, my bathroom sink, the top of my dresser, the end table, and the right, because I would lose them. Where'd I put my water bottle? I don't know. I'll just go get another one. And so the problem is I own 20. Like they come in six packs, right? So I own 20 of them. It probably would be better to own four.

Speaker 1 53:34

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Moore 53:36

I don't know what my point is. Just that I need people to understand that this is how the ADHD brain can work sometimes.

Dr. Kelly Cagle 53:44

I let let me here's where my mind goes, Dr. Amy, as also an ADHDer. If I have this, Sandy, this will go back to that simple simplicity point. Okay. So if I have um a lot of different options, I see it with pencils as a homeschooling mom. If I have tons of pencils, my boys aren't gonna care to take great care of the pencils because they know they just couldn't go get another one. Then I'll find pencils all over the house without, you know, like true care to to get it back where it belongs so they have it tomorrow. You know? And so in this simplification mindset, it really is what do I need? Dr. Amy, there's, I mean, sure, have 20 water bottles, but you don't have the need for 20 because you're likely, I mean, you might d be drinking 20 of them a day. But if you kept less, then you have less to keep up with, then you know that in your personal organization lifestyle as a system, you have to get it back because tomorrow I need this. So for example, we have a we drink a lot of protein shakes here in our house. And we make with them with all sorts of different different things. But we have one ninja blender and the ninja uh, the like the individual one, we have just that one. So if I use it in the morning, I gotta rinse it because my son is gonna be making his and then he's gotta rinse it because then my other son's gonna come in and make his, and then he's gotta rinse it because we have the one. And so you end up taking better care when you have less, because I know that this is really meaningful. We all really need this thing, you know? And to the close, like if this, if this sweater starts getting like little balls and then start bothering me, what I need to do is think, do I need to replace this or do I just need to get rid of it because I have other ones that can fill this gap?

Dr. Amy Moore 55:51

I love that. That is fantastic advice. And I'm going to only have four of my glass water bottles when we hang up. You know, I was I was thinking because I really struggled, you know, to keep my closet organized as well. And I have 32 pairs of jeans. I counted them the other day. Who needs 32 pairs of jeans? Nobody needs 32 pairs of jeans. That's ridiculous. No wonder I have a hard time keeping.

Dr. Kelly Cagle 56:14

And that's just an example of how and how how many of them are you actually wearing most of the time on a weekly basis? Right, four or five. Uh-huh. Exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Amy Moore 56:26

Yeah. But I keep thinking, well, I like these, right? There might be an occasion. They go with these shoes better, right?

Dr. Kelly Cagle 56:34

And so pay a lot of money for these. Mm-hmm.

Sandy Zamalis 56:39

Yeah.

unknown 56:40

Yeah.

Sandy Zamalis 56:41

I think it's it's an ongoing battle, you know. That's what I'm hearing both of you say. And I think from a parenting perspective too, like, you know, again, my kids like Amy's are are older and out of the house now. And I, you know, my son definitely struggled, more so than my daughter. My daughter was very organized and um liked her things a certain way. Um, but it took a long time for I mean, I was the manager of the chaos. So, you know, I was constantly, you know, helping uh teach and train these skills, but I then I was convinced that he was never gonna get them. He was gonna go out into the world and it was gonna be mass chaos, and that's okay. Um, he'll be fine. Um, but it's been funny to watch him, you know, in his late 20s. And, you know, when when our kids actually get out and have to manage their own things, like part of the reason they're so messy is because we're the chaos managers and we're there to pick up the slack, right? Not that I don't think we should, that you know, that we can love and nurture them and offer that as a service to them as we need and also train them to do it themselves so they can do it when they leave. Um, but a lot of the things that we're talking about for our kids, um as much as we want them to be, you know, structured and organized and all of these things, sometimes they won't develop them until they're forced to do it on their own. Um, they don't have that backup, and that's okay. Uh hopefully they've seen you model 40 different ways to strategize and to maintain a space so that they at least have a reference point that they can think back to. So it's like, what would my mom have said, or what would my mom do in this situation? I think that's beautiful.

Dr. Kelly Cagle 58:25

I think that's a beautiful perspective, Sandy, because there, you know, I we also have to know that our our way, our systems aren't the only ones that could get the job done. And so my my older son always tells me, he says, when I have my own house, my house is gonna be spotless. I'm like, great, I cannot wait to come see your house. Because right now I don't, I don't add this second portion. But right now I'm like, dear lord, this boy, his okay, you know. But ultimately, like you said, now you get to see this because you helped give this environment to your son that you didn't shame him. You maybe you weren't perfect, maybe there were moments, I get it, like I'm there too. But I'm I'm letting him be a person in his home, in his safe haven. He has a place that he can come. And if by golly, one day he felt like taking off his clothes and just throwing it all over the floor because he had a bag breakup or he was just tired as all get out, then okay, like so be it. This is your realm, this is your safe haven. So I think that there's definitely a balance of us creating systems, creating structures all within boundaries, that we are helping them strategize and see the benefit of all of the things. And yet with a whole lot of empathy and grace for them to become their own person with their own systems, with their own interests, with their own likes and what they want to wear. So it's such a balance. That is where the curiosity and creativity pieces are essential to us on a daily basis as parents.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:00:06

I love that. So as we wrap up this conversation, if you could sort of summarize your top three organization tips for families with ADHD members, what would those three top tips be? Top three. What would those top? We're gonna say that one more time. What would those top three tips be?

Dr. Kelly Cagle 1:00:29

So I think the first one, I have to think of me, what what I think is impactful to me. So the first one is I started analyzing, well, what are what do like my husband and I, what are we constantly fighting about? What keeps coming up as an issue? And if you start there, then you can create systems and tips and strategies around those common themes. So what we always fought about or argued about was food. My husband is, he grew up very differently than I did. They ate really well. Well, I grew up with, hey, here's what we have, let's get the job done. And because I am the ADHD, I'm constantly thinking of so many things, different things that my inflexibility to turn off work to then switch, it literally has to be like, okay, I'm shutting down my computer, poop, work is done, and I'm stepping into the kitchen. Then my juices start flowing towards cooking. Well, what do we have and all these things? Well, we were constantly having a lot of friction around that. So I came up with a system that was hey, on Sundays, we think about what do we have going on this week? What is our schedule like, what what meetings do you have, blah, blah, blah. Then let's go grocery shopping that day. That way we know, hey, we have enough food here. We are, you know, and that has cut back on two things. One, the arguments over food, but also two, it has helped us with our budgeting around eating out. Because before it was, oh, I don't know what we have. Okay, well, let's just meet at two ease. Where now it's, hey, here's what we have. So I think finding out the common things around what you are constantly fighting about is a huge one because then you can create a system to alleviate some of that. The second one we've been touching on, and that's just simplify. Figure out in your life, it could be that it's your closet, it could be that even your calendar, are you really dealing with true an ADHD brain, or is it that you're just really overwhelmed and really overbooked and overcommitted? There is a big difference there, my friends. And I think that just because you are forgetful and you have a lot of yeses that you're saying doesn't already mean that you have ADHD. Dr. Amy, I know you do a lot of education behind this piece, so I don't have to add anything to that, but just get clear on your commitments. Are you really dealing with true neurodivergence or is it an overcommitment? Again, getting clear on that and simplifying um that overcommitment, over-scheduling, over close, like over too many options. That's an amazing, another amazing part, um, place to start. And then the third one, gosh, I'm trying to think of another one. Um, okay, uh I'm a lot of people know this, and I'm sure you've touched on this quite often, Dr. Amy, but exercise. That is one of the biggest things that whether you are an ADHDer or you're not, and I don't mean that every time you have to burn 300 calories or you have to listen to evanescence while you're working out, like Dr. Amy, whatever playlist you have. But you do have to have a routine of moving your body. It could be that you are in a season where you doing cartwheels with your daughter is your activity. You going on a bike ride with your son is your activity. Make sure that you are moving your body, that you are staying active, that you are getting that fresh air, that you're connecting. There's so many pieces to that one thing of connection with others or even with yourself, of prioritizing your needs, of releasing the energy level that's built up that a lot of times is, you know, ends up coming out in wrong ways or like bad ways with especially men and testosterone or things like that. So I think moving your body is is a huge priority and sleep. There's a four.

Where To Find Kelly And Closing

Dr. Amy Moore 1:04:54

I love both of those. They help your brain work better. And those of us with ADHD need all the help we can get with our brains and how efficient they are working. Dr. Kelly Cagle, thank you so much for being with us today and for sharing your wisdom and your insights and your experience that is embedded right in your own family. Um, so not just your formal training, but you live it all day, every day. And so we just really appreciate you sharing um a little bit of your life with us today. It was a pleasure, ladies. Thank you for having me. So that is all that we have time for today. We will put links to find Dr. Kelly in the show notes so that you can listen to her podcast, um Parenting IQ podcast. Um, and so that you can find her website and all of the cool stuff that she's written in her blogs and her research publications. Uh, so we'll put that in the show notes. Again, don't forget to sign up for our newsletter at thebrainymoms.com. You can find us on social media at the Brainy Moms, and you can find more from Sandy at the Brain Trainer Live. Lady on TikTok. That is all the smart stuff that we have for you today. We hope that you learned a little bit more than you knew before. We'll catch you next time.